ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Clete]

http://www.jewfaq.org/g-d.htm

Dave, not only do they believe God is transcendant of time and know the future perfectly, they believe God created evil as well.

Hey, fullofbaloney. Get a clue will ya. That site is about what modern Jews believe. Every bit of it is influenced heavily by Helenistic philosophy as where many ancient Jews as well. The Sadducees even rejected the idea of angels and the resurrection of the dead on top of being very Hellenistic all the way back in the first century. And so even if this site was about ancient Jewish beliefs, which is isn't, it wouldn't prove that such beliefs were or are Biblical.

In a sentence..

WHO CARES WHAT THE JEWS BELIEVE???


Even if we granted you the point (which of course we would never do) what does it prove except that the Jews have it just as wrong as the Calvinists do!

 

[Clete]

Both to you and Clete, The OT Hebrews did believe in an Omniscient God who has Exhaustive foreknowledge. It is written in ancient commentaries well before Plato or Aristotle influences. I had to varify and so went to a Hebrew scholar friend. He's looking up the references for me (He is Jewish, not messianic). Where does that leave your argument?

It leaves it in a place where I am forced to conclude that either you are lying or are being lied too. I strongly suspect the latter.

Can you cite his source and how he knows that this source predates Aristotle?

If so, please do.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[BillH]

Might God see all time as present?

Might God see all time as present?

Could it be that God sees all time as if it were present?

I've always liked CS Lewis's quote on sin: "We have a strange illusion that mere time cancels sin. But mere time does nothing either to the fact or to the guilt of a sin."

 

[DFT_Dave]

http://www.jewfaq.org/g-d.htm

Dave, not only do they believe God is transcendant of time and know the future perfectly, they believe God created evil as well.

I see now that you are saying that the Ancient Jews/Hebrews, those who lived during the Old Testament period, saw time as "circular" not "linear" as the Greeks did. Although the other source you gave said just the opposite, I think I get the point now.

So we have "circular" verses "linear" time. Certainly the circular view is an ancient one developed in the Vedas, Upanishads, and Bhagavad-Gita. But is this also what the O.T. is really about?

I would like some quotes from some scholars that this was so, and some scripture to back it up. Like Clete, I am in the dark here.

But I like this, its the Matrix syndrome, "It is possible for several eras of man to exist within one era of the earth. The history of mankind is the interlacing circles of generations of people who live and die and nations (and machines) that rise and fall time and time again."--Ancient Hebrew Research Center, Concepts in Time.

Next post I will explain the "ying and yang" of this pantheism.

 

[baloney]

Clete, read Isaiah 45; 6-7. It is Biblical as the ancient Hebraic beliefs since they are the ones who wrote the Scripture.


Calvin's arguments do not follow from misinterpretation caused by Greek philosophy, but from fallacies in Luther's faith alone views.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Could it be that God sees all time as if it were present?

That wouldn't be a biblically accurate view.

The Bible has hundreds of examples of God progressing through time just as we are.

Let me give you one very clear example:

Judges 14:1 Now Samson went down to Timnah, and saw a woman in Timnah of the daughters of the Philistines. 2 So he went up and told his father and mother, saying, “I have seen a woman in Timnah of the daughters of the Philistines; now therefore, get her for me as a wife.” 3 Then his father and mother said to him, “Is there no woman among the daughters of your brethren, or among all my people, that you must go and get a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?” And Samson said to his father, “Get her for me, for she pleases me well.” 4 But his father and mother did not know that it was of the LORD — that He was seeking an occasion to move against the Philistines. For at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.

Notice that God Himself was seeking (looking for) the right occasion (time) to move against the Philistines.

Said again....

God was waiting for the right moment to act, based on the actions of men.

 

[elected4ever]

Precisely. That was the whole point of my asking the rhetorical question, "Do you believe that a Chicken clucks because it chooses to do that rather than to bark like a dog?".

Your answer to that question is no, as is mine.

Therefore when you asked...

"Would you agree that God is righteous because of who He is verses what He does? For example, Is a chicken a chicken because it clucks or does a chicken cluck because a chicken is a chicken? Does the nature of a thing define the thing or does the thing define its nature?"​

and I answered...

The term righteous is meaningless without choice, thus God chooses to be righteous or He is not righteous at all.​

Your question should have been answered quite nicely.

God being righteous is not like a chicken clucking. A chicken does not choose to cluck and therefore there is no moral implication in its clucking all day every day because that which is not chosen is not moral in nature.

To say that God does not choose his actions is to say that God is amoral. One cannot be both righteous and amoral. Thus, God chooses His actions, which have consistently been in the best interests of others and thus it is meaningful to say that God is righteous.

Resting in Him,
Clete

If what you say is true then why are we told in scripture that there are none righteous NO NOT ONE! Is man capable of being righteous? If not, why not?

 

[baloney]

Let's get to the real failure of the argument that Christian theologians like Augustine forged Greek philosophy with "original Christian way of thinking."

Paul of Tarsus was a Hellenized Jew from a city in Asia Minor. How was he able to convert the gentiles? By speaking on their terms and philosophy. Look at Corinthians or any other of the epistles addressed to the church of the Gentiles. They teem with Greek philosophy.

How about Luke a gentile convert. Are you saying he wasn't influenced by Greek philosophy.

Why were the Gospels written in the Greek?

Just when do you believe this influence of Greek philosophy started? At the very beginning of Christianity? The facts are overwhelming that it did.

 

[elected4ever]

Precisely. That was the whole point of my asking the rhetorical question, "Do you believe that a Chicken clucks because it chooses to do that rather than to bark like a dog?".

Your answer to that question is no, as is mine.

Therefore when you asked...

"Would you agree that God is righteous because of who He is verses what He does? For example, Is a chicken a chicken because it clucks or does a chicken cluck because a chicken is a chicken? Does the nature of a thing define the thing or does the thing define its nature?"​

and I answered...

The term righteous is meaningless without choice, thus God chooses to be righteous or He is not righteous at all.​

Your question should have been answered quite nicely.

God being righteous is not like a chicken clucking. A chicken does not choose to cluck and therefore there is no moral implication in its clucking all day every day because that which is not chosen is not moral in nature.

To say that God does not choose his actions is to say that God is amoral. One cannot be both righteous and amoral. Thus, God chooses His actions, which have consistently been in the best interests of others and thus it is meaningful to say that God is righteous.

Resting in Him,
Clete

You did not answer the question nicely or otherwise. God can not commit an unrighteous act any more than a chicken can bark. It is not the nature of God to do unrighteously. It matters not one wit what our judgments of God's acts are. God cannot do unrighteously. Righteousness is not an act or a choice but a state of existence. God cannot act opposed to who He is.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Let's get to the real failure of the argument that Christian theologians like Augustine forged Greek philosophy with "original Christian way of thinking."

Paul of Tarsus was a Hellenized Jew from a city in Asia Minor. How was he able to convert the gentiles? By speaking on their terms and philosophy. Look at Corinthians or any other of the epistles addressed to the church of the Gentiles. They teem with Greek philosophy.

How about Luke a gentile convert. Are you saying he wasn't influenced by Greek philosophy.

Why were the Gospels written in the Greek?

Just when do you believe this influence of Greek philosophy started? At the very beginning of Christianity? The facts are overwhelming that it did.

So now Paul and Luke were Platonists or "linear" in their theological/philosophical view of time, how do you prove this is the case? How do you prove that the Ancient Hebrews were "circular" in their view and how do you prove or demonstrate that circular is a correct view and linear is a wrong view of eternal time?

Your comments are not proofs of anything other than your opinion, so please offer an argument that supports your belief.

Please respond to my last post so that at least know that I correctly understand your position. I will demonstrate the logical implications of the "circular" view of time and I will use more quotes from the website you used to explain it.

 

[elected4ever]

So now Paul and Luke were Platonists or "linear" in their theological/philosophical view of time, how do you prove this is the case? How do you prove that the Ancient Hebrews were "circular" in their view and how do you prove or demonstrate that circular is a correct view and linear is a wrong view of eternal time?

Your comments are not proofs of anything other than your opinion, so please offer an argument that supports your belief.

Please respond to my last post so that at least know that I correctly understand your position. I will demonstrate the logical implications of the "circular" view of time and I will use more quotes from the website you used to explain it.

Time is a contenuem and not circular. There is no indication anywhere in scripture that a circular time is even suggested. If there is, enlighten me.

 

[BillH]

Oh..I think God clearly enters time as he chooses..but that passage doesn't mean that God has limits like our past and our future constrain us to. Not at all.

 

[elected4ever]

Oh..I think God clearly enters time as he chooses..but that passage doesn't mean that God has limits like our past and our future constrain us to. Not at all.

I think God enters our perception of time but i do not think he is confined by our perceptions.

 

[BillH]

Jesus pierces through the veil of time and space during every Mass through the consecration of the Eucharist. Mass is celebrated round the clock worldwide. He is present among us all the time. Someone put it well, might have been John Paul II, something to the effect of "all time and space collapses toward the Euchrarist".

Mass, in fact, is our participation in the Divine Liturgy that's going on all the time in heaven.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Time is a contenuem and not circular. There is no indication anywhere in scripture that a circular time is even suggested. If there is, enlighten me.

My comments are in reference to my chat with Baloney. I'm hoping he will enlighten all of us. I believe that time is "linear" both eternally and temporally and is the bases for the free will of man and freedom in God.

 

[elected4ever]

Jesus pierces through the veil of time and space during every Mass through the consecration of the Eucharist. Mass is celebrated round the clock worldwide. He is present among us all the time. Someone put it well, might have been John Paul II, something to the effect of "all time and space collapses toward the Euchrarist".

Mass, in fact, is our participation in the Divine Liturgy that's going on all the time in heaven.

That might make sense to you but to me that is total bunk.

 

[DFT_Dave]

That might make sense to you but to me that is total bunk.

Amen :thumb:

My deepest sympathy goes out to those who are born into this.

 

[elected4ever]

Amen :thumb:

My deepest sympathy goes out to those who are born into this.

Yea, its a rotten shame. Lucky for Him Christ is able to save to the uttermost all those who believe.

 

[godrulz]

Could it be that God sees all time as if it were present?

I've always liked CS Lewis's quote on sin: "We have a strange illusion that mere time cancels sin. But mere time does nothing either to the fact or to the guilt of a sin."

This eternal now theory from Plato and Augustine was accepted by Lewis (Anglican). He actually was not a careful theologian, but a popular radio preacher and writer. His strength was ancient literature, not theology proper, even though he communicated Christian truth in a helpful way.

The past, present, and future are distinct, even for God. Simultaneity or timelessness is incoherent for a personal being. Time is unidirectional. The future is not yet. The past is fixed and no more. Only the present is actual (presentism vs eternalism, also known as A vs B theory of time).

 

[godrulz]

If what you say is true then why are we told in scripture that there are none righteous NO NOT ONE! Is man capable of being righteous? If not, why not?

All men eventually sin. Man is universally condemned because all men sin and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 1-3). No matter how good any man would be, they would still be unrighteous in light of God's holiness.