ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[godrulz]

I guess it boils down to this then.......who's Will do we value most of all? Who's Will is more important? Obviously it's God's Will.

So then, if our Will lines up with His Will, only then are we truly free. Only then do we experience "free" will. With out Christ (God) we are nothing but slaves. We serve either God our Father, or Satan our father. We cannot serve two masters. If flesh drives our will then we serve the devil, but if the Spirit drives our will, then we serve Christ. We are not our own, remember? We are bought with a price. We owe Him our very being....all that we are or ever will be! We should not be concerned with our will but the will of God and His only should we be anxious to do.

If you wish to concern yourselves with these pithy arguements about "free will" and use analogies like next year's superbowl........then your free will serves your flesh. You should think about whom it is you are really serving...........

The fact that there are sinners and saints shows that there is free will. God's will is not the only factor in the universe. He used His free will to create other free moral agents. There is self-determination, even in animals. They eat out of the dog dish when they want. They are not on divine puppet strings. Your act of typing is free will. You can sit down and type when you want without God's intervention. Free will also relates to moral choices. There are similarities and differences.

 

[ChristisKing]

The fact that there are sinners and saints shows that there is free will. God's will is not the only factor in the universe. He used His free will to create other free moral agents. There is self-determination, even in animals. They eat out of the dog dish when they want. They are not on divine puppet strings. Your act of typing is free will. You can sit down and type when you want without God's intervention. Free will also relates to moral choices. There are similarities and differences.

Of course we have freedom of choice, but that doesn't mean we have the freedom to will and do anything we want. We can't freely will ourselves to fly, live forever, or become holy. The reason we can't "freely will" and do these things of course is that we were born without wings, to die and as sinners. We can't "free will" our way out of these facts.

Just because we eat from the dish of our choice, type what we choose and sit when we want to doesn't mean we can fly, avoid death or stop sinning when we want to. We don't have the ability to fly, live forever or stop sinning, even when we "free will it!"

For instance, Jesus Christ said we can't come to Him, that is, we don't have the ability to come to Him:

JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, ...

JOH 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, ...

Notice He doesn't say "no man may come to Him," He say's "no man can come to Him." Just like no man can fly and no man can live forever, so Christ taught that no man can come to Him. No man can do any of these things unless the Father intervenes! And when the Father intervenes anyone can do these things.

JOH 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; ...

 

[Delmar]

WE can't come to him because he came to us first. to all men John 3:16

 

[ChristisKing]

WE can't come to him because he came to us first. to all men John 3:16

No, Christ had already come to "us" first and many would still not come to Him. So He explained that the reason some would not come to Him was that they had not personally heard and learned from the Father!

JOH 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 

[Agape4Robin]

The fact that there are sinners and saints shows that there is free will. God's will is not the only factor in the universe. He used His free will to create other free moral agents. There is self-determination, even in animals. They eat out of the dog dish when they want. They are not on divine puppet strings. Your act of typing is free will. You can sit down and type when you want without God's intervention. Free will also relates to moral choices. There are similarities and differences.

You resort to using animals to solidify your OT view of free will? "They eat out of the dog dish when they want".......seriously? That is your arguement for animals having "free will"? I won't even dignify this line of "reasoning" with a reply.

God's Will is not the only factor in the universe? Are you so smug as to think that you keep your own heart beating? No, God's Will keeps your heart beating, it is He that decides when you will draw your last breath. The very hairs on your head are numbered! It is He that keeps the universe in perfect order, nothing is truly independant of Him. If you call yourself Christian, you owe Him everything! Without God's Will that Christ shed His blood for the remission of sins, you would die in your sin and pay the penalty due God. You are not your own, you were bought with a price! The blood of Christ! If we are free, then only in Christ are we truly free. You have forgotten this, or in your pursuit of "free will", you deny it. It may be my desire (or if you prefer; free will) to sit here and type, but it is a desire to do the Will of God, that you might hear the truth, means that God's Will and not my own is what drives me to do so. It is my hope that you will recognize the difference.

 

[godrulz]

WE can't come to him because he came to us first. to all men John 3:16

He tells all who are weary and heavy laden to come to Him. He said: Come, and follow me. He would not give a command if it was impossible to obey.

 

[godrulz]

You resort to using animals to solidify your OT view of free will? "They eat out of the dog dish when they want".......seriously? That is your arguement for animals having "free will"? I won't even dignify this line of "reasoning" with a reply.

God's Will is not the only factor in the universe! Are you so smug as to think that you keep your own heart beating? No, God's Will keeps your heart beating, it is He that decides when you will draw your last breath. The very hairs on your head are numbered! It is He that keeps the universe in perfect order, nothing is truly independant of Him. If you call yourself Christian, you owe Him everything! Without God's Will that Christ shed His blood for the remission of sins, you would die in your sin and pay the penalty due God. You are not your own, you were bought with a price! The blood of Christ! If we are free, then only in Christ are we truly free. You have forgotten this, or in your pursuit of "free will", you deny it. It may be my desire (or if you prefer; free will) to sit here and type, but it is a desire to do the Will of God, that you might hear the truth, means that God's Will and not my own is what drives me to do so. It is my hope that you will recognize the difference.

Ultimately, God is the providential sustainer of the universe. This does not mean that General Motor's employees cannot assemble defective cars or that when you turn the key it requires God's direct will and intervention to start the motor and keep it turning. If a Christian does not put oil or gas in the car, God's will and power will not usually sustain it. Free will is self-evident. It is not contrary to God's will. It is part of being in the personal image of God. You can have independent thoughts, feelings, and actions. This is to the glory of God and not a threat on His sovereignty. Most theists do not strain at gnats and choke on camels over these self-evident ideas.

 

[ChristisKing]

He tells all who are weary and heavy laden to come to Him. He said: Come, and follow me. He would not give a command if it was impossible to obey.

The Word of God is preached to all because the elect are interdispersed among the non-elect. Therefore Christ also taught:

MAT 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

JOH 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
JOH 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 

[godrulz]

The Word of God is preached to all because the elect are interdispersed among the non-elect. Therefore Christ also taught:

MAT 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

JOH 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
JOH 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Nice try, batman. Mt. 22 is about call to service/discipleship, not individual salvation.

Jn. 6 recognizes that God initiates, provides, draws vs coerces. It also shows that some are not genuinely converted due to lack of repentant faith or falling away/apostasy when persecution or apathy set in.

God is not insincere. He does not have the universal antidote to sin and death preached to all men cruelly knowing that the 'non-elect' cannot respond even if they wanted to. The Gospel is preached persuasively calling all men to repent and trust Christ (Jn. 1:12; 3:16; 36; I Jn. 5:11-13). If they refuse to, they will perish. When hyper-Calvinism is strong, evangelism is weak in the church. God will not save many He could save, regardless, and He will save the elect whether we do anything or not. Love and justice is impartial, not arbitrary. Hyper-sovereignty is a distortion of God's character and ways.

God's grace and will can be resisted. We can quench and grieve the ministry of the Spirit. He commands all men everywhere to repent, because they can (Acts 17:30). Some will sneer, some will jeer, some will procrastinate, some will repent. The different responses are rooted in man's mind/will and response to the conviction/convincing of the Spirit, not the eternal decree of God (double predestination...phooey).

Lk. 7:30 "But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John."

Lk. 13:34 "I have longed to gather your children together...but YOU were NOT WILLING!" Do not blame God for the reprobation of the sinner.

2 Peter 3:9 He wants everyone to repent and none to perish. This is His will, but hell shows that it can be thwarted (individual salvation vs ultimate victory in the universe of good over evil).

I Tim. 2:4 He wants all men to be saved (forget the all types of men feeble argument). v. 6 ransom for all men...His plan of redemption is efficacious for all who trust and receive vs reject Him.

 

[Clete]

Oh..I feel so sorry for you. I will pray for you.

You are a liar and a fool! I absolutely insist that you DO NOT pray for me, you condescending jackass! Who exactly do you think you are anyway?
Show me where anything I've said is untrue. Show me where you were not being arrogant and condescending. Show me if you can. I've reread your posts just to see if maybe I missed something but no, it is as I first thought. You think you've got it all figured out and that the rest of us are immature dolts who are too stupid to figure out that none of this can be figured out. You're perfectly happy to tell us that we've got it all wrong but refuse to establish a word of it Biblically. Why are you even here on a theological debate web site if you aren't going to debate? I'm not interested in your preaching at me and praying for me and I'm not interested in what you THINK the truth is. God has given us the truth in His word and I can and have repeatedly established my beliefs Biblically, historically, and logically and am willing to do it again

It seems your life is just slobbering around in the mud. There are so many like you--so lost with an angry spirit. Showing no love..no restraint. Shouting out devils words--doing the accusers work for him.

You do not know me from Adam, you have no idea what I''m like and you have no idea what sort of spirit I have. Further, it is you who accuse me (and godrulz) of being immature and ignorant without cause and without investigation into what we even believe and why.

By your words you proved what you really are. I know what its like to be immatue in Christ. I pray that your just a youngling. I've been though this before--I know what its like.

Been through what before? You do not know me! You don't know anything about my spiritual life or what I even believe! You cannot know what you pretend to know! Stop making stuff up and passing yourself off as some wise sage! It's ridiculous are pathetic, not to mention transparent. Your lies are very thinly veiled and unconvincing.

And no I wont put up--you know the text--the truth has been preached for 2000 years.

Cop out city. You will not because you cannot or fear that I will destroy you Biblically or both. What did you do, try to look some of this stuff up and couldn't find any of it in the Bible?

I wont go down in the mud with you. It is obvious that people have already put up the text for you many times--so you can have you lustful fun.

I've destroyed every Calvinist that has ever debated me, destroyed them (must have been predestined, eh?). You will be no different if you choose to actually engage the debate.

I thought a decent way at to help you was to help you see why you would believe such a heresy

I was a Calvinist for 20 years before I became an Open Theist. More than likely, I know your own arguments better than you do. I know, I know, you're not a Calvinist, right?. Whatever. If you believe that God exists outside of time and that He is utterly immutable, then you are a Calvinist or you are logically inconsistent. Either way, if you ever do actually debate me you will lose, I guarantee it.

23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Good advice! Stop insulting my intelligence and make an argument instead of grand standing and playing the wise old sage and we might make some serious progress! I have no quarrel with you personally; I don't even know you. I do however have a problem with a man who wants to take a condescending tone with me and assumes that I must be spiritually immature because I don't agree with him and who refuses to even make an attempt to establish what he says at all! Is it possible to be any more arrogant than that?

Resting in Him,
:Clete:

 

[Clete]

The Word of God is preached to all because the elect are interdispersed among the non-elect. Therefore Christ also taught:

In other words, you as a Calvinist must live your life as though your theology was not true. Your theology is utterly unfalsifiable and so you must assume that every is unelect and that they only might be of the elect. You in effect live your Christian life exactly as if people had free will.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Poly]

Johnmnbvc,

It is encouraged around here to biblically back up what you believe. You're not going to get too far with merely expressing what you believe to be true and expecting everybody to accept what you have to say simply because Johnmnbvc believes it so that should be more than enough to go on. Please provide biblical evidence for your beliefs.

 

[ChristisKing]

You are a liar and a fool! I absolutely insist that you DO NOT pray for me, you condescending jackass! Who exactly do you think you are anyway? Is it possible to be any more arrogant than that?

Resting in Him,
:Clete:

More sophisticated indefensible apologetics of an Open Theist who is "resting in him." :chuckle:

 

[Clete]

More sophisticated indefensible apologetics of an Open Theist, "resting in him." :chuckle:

Very substantive! I'm impressed.

I'm not at all surprised that you do not understand the reference in my signoff but that's a different issue.

Do you want to engage the debate or not?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[ChristisKing]

godrulz-Nice try, batman. Mt. 22 is about call to service/discipleship, not individual salvation.

Why is Christ specifically speaking of individual salvation and hell then, robin?

MAT 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
MAT 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
MAT 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
MAT 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

godrulz-Jn. 6 recognizes that God initiates, provides, draws vs coerces. It also shows that some are not genuinely converted due to lack of repentant faith or falling away/apostasy when persecution or apathy set in.

Christ doesn’t say anything about coerce, where in the world are you getting that from? You mean to say that’s what you would have said, right? It say’s God will draw them, like you draw water from a well. You don’t coerce water from the well do you? :chuckle:

JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And all the Father draws will come, like water drawn from the well, without exception!

JOH 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

godrulz-God is not insincere. He does not have the universal antidote to sin and death preached to all men cruelly knowing that the 'non-elect' cannot respond even if they wanted to.

God is sincere, He saves all He intends to save. He has decided to leave some in their sins as judgment on them, its not insincerity, its judgment and judgment in which He is very sincere to completely accomplish.

ISA 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

godrulz-God's grace and will can be resisted.

Christ explains that it will always be resisted unless it is given to us by the Father to believe in Christ and when it is given to us we will never ever resist it.

JOH 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

JOH 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

godrulz-2 Peter 3:9 He wants everyone to repent and none to perish. This is His will, but hell shows that it can be thwarted (individual salvation vs ultimate victory in the universe of good over evil).

You completely misquoted the verse resulting in a new meaning, it doesn’t say He wants everyone to repent and none to perish, it says He doesn’t want any of us to perish. Of course the “us” is the elect to whom Peter is addressing his letter to:

1PE 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1PE 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,...

2PE 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

godrulz-I Tim. 2:4 He wants all men to be saved (forget the all types of men feeble argument). v. 6 ransom for all men...His plan of redemption is efficacious for all who trust and receive vs reject Him.

I can’t forget the all types of men, the Apostle Paul just won’t let me:

1TI 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1TI 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

 

[docrob57]

I tried starting a thread with this and got no response, so I thought I would try it here.

Prior to coming to this forum, I was unfamiliar with open theism, and my understanding of it is incomplete at best. From what I have read, however, the idea that the future does not exist and, therefore, God cannot know the future is central to the doctrine.

I wanted to put forth a few points that, to me, seem to cast doubt on this idea, even if the future, in fact, does not exist.

The basic fact that causes problems, I think, is that the outcome of deterministic processes is knowable, even if the outcome has not yet occured. For example, if I have a pot of water at room temperature, I can predict that the water will start to boil once I raise it to a given temperature for a certain amount of time. If I start to raise the temperature of the water, I can predict its future, even though it does not as yet exist.

Boiling water, of course, is a simple process. Matters such as human behavior are seemingly much more complex. However, the complexity of the matter does not alter its predictability if the causal processes are known. I don't think that any Christian, would argue that God does not know the causal processes that drive human behavior, or the processes that drive any phenomenon that occurs in the world, the universe, etc. Our inability to predict the future with certainty is due to our imperfect or even erroneous knowledge of causal mechanisms. This is not a limitation of God.

The alternative would be that human behavior and other phenomenon are simply random processes, predictable within some given level of precision, but definitely not predictable with certainty. This is a possibility, but we don't have any reason to believe it is true. Chaos theory tells us, for example, that even simple deterministic processes can manifest themselves as random. And if phenomenon are random, they are only random in a bounded way. It would be foolish to argue that deterministic processes do not exist. If some processes contain a random element, this limits the ability to predict with accuracy but the limitation to accuracy depends on the magnitude of the random element. And, it is possible, that random (or stochastic) processes do not actually exist.

So, this being the case, the argument that God does not know the future, or only knows it in a contingent way, seems problematic. If God does know the future, then the ideas that God changes his mind, does not act until He sees what people will do, etc. seem to lose credibility.

Just interested in your thoughts.

 

[Clete]

Prior to coming to this forum, I was unfamiliar with open theism, and my understanding of it is incomplete at best. From what I have read, however, the idea that the future does not exist and, therefore, God cannot know the future is central to the doctrine.

I wanted to put forth a few points that, to me, seem to cast doubt on this idea, even if the future, in fact, does not exist.

The basic fact that causes problems, I think, is that the outcome of deterministic processes is knowable, even if the outcome has not yet occured. For example, if I have a pot of water at room temperature, I can predict that the water will start to boil once I raise it to a given temperature for a certain amount of time. If I start to raise the temperature of the water, I can predict its future, even though it does not as yet exist.

Boiling water, of course, is a simple process. Matters such as human behavior are seemingly much more complex. However, the complexity of the matter does not alter its predictability if the causal processes are known. I don't think that any Christian, would argue that God does not know the causal processes that drive human behavior, or the processes that drive any phenomenon that occurs in the world, the universe, etc. Our inability to predict the future with certainty is due to our imperfect or even erroneous knowledge of causal mechanisms. This is not a limitation of God.

The alternative would be that human behavior and other phenomenon are simply random processes, predictable within some given level of precision, but definitely not predictable with certainty. This is a possibility, but we don't have any reason to believe it is true. Chaos theory tells us, for example, that even simple deterministic processes can manifest themselves as random. And if phenomenon are random, they are only random in a bounded way. It would be foolish to argue that deterministic processes do not exist. If some processes contain a random element, this limits the ability to predict with accuracy but the limitation to accuracy depends on the magnitude of the random element. And, it is possible, that random (or stochastic) processes do not actually exist.

So, this being the case, the argument that God does not know the future, or only knows it in a contingent way, seems problematic. If God does know the future, then the ideas that God changes his mind, does not act until He sees what people will do, etc. seem to lose credibility.

Just interested in your thoughts.

I see no major problems with what you've said here, which in a nutshell is that if something other than causalities exist (like the human will for example) then God can only PREDICT the future based on the information which is knowable to Him (i.e. causalities, and those things which He intends to bring to pass Himself, etc).

This is Open Theism in a nutshell.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[ChristisKing]

I see no major problems with what you've said here, which in a nutshell is that if something other than causalities exist (like the human will for example) then God can only PREDICT the future based on the information which is knowable to Him (i.e. causalities, and those things which He intends to bring to pass Himself, etc).

This is Open Theism in a nutshell.

Resting in Him,
Clete

It sure is, it's a tiny god in a tiny little nutshell! What a terrible thing to attribute to God that He can only PREDICT based on what is knowable to Him. This isn't God, this is a puny god of your imagination and making.

The one and only true God knows all things:

PSA 139:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
PSA 139:2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
PSA 139:3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
PSA 139:4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
PSA 139:5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
PSA 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

The psalmist recognized the omniscience of God in that God knew his actions, his thoughts, his words before he even spoke them, and his entire life (Ps. 139:1-4).

MAT 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

God knows all the variables concerning things that have not occurred. Jesus knew what Tyre and Sidon would have done had the gospel been preached to them:

MAT 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

God knows all future events. Because God is eternal and knows all things in one eternal act, events that are future to man are an "eternal now" to God. He knew the nations that would dominate Israel:

DAN 2:36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
DAN 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
DAN 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
DAN 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
DAN 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
DAN 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
DAN 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
DAN 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

DAN 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
DAN 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
DAN 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
DAN 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
DAN 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

and He knows the events that will yet transpire upon the earth (Matt. 24-25; Rev. 6-19).

 

[Clete]

It sure is, it's a tiny god in a tiny little nutshell! What a terrible thing to attribute to God that He can only PREDICT based on what is knowable to Him. This isn't God, this is a puny god of your imagination and making.

Emotionalistic nonsense. Saying it doesn't make it so. Saying God can know all that is knowable is not making Him small or puny or anything else of the sort.

The one and only true God knows all things:

PSA 139:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
PSA 139:2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
PSA 139:3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
PSA 139:4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
PSA 139:5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
PSA 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

Nothing here suggests that God knows more than is knowable. Nothing here suggest that God knows more than was suggested in docrob57's post.

The psalmist recognized the omniscience of God in that God knew his actions, his thoughts, his words before he even spoke them, and his entire life (Ps. 139:1-4).

You are reading into the text. It does not say this. It would not be difficult for God to know what you are going to say before you say it. I do that with my wife all the time and God knows her much better than I do. Even so, I only strongly suspect or am able to reliably predict what my wife will say because I know her so well, it is the same with God. Stop reading your theology into the text and simply read it for what it says.

MAT 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

God knows all the variables concerning things that have not occurred. Jesus knew what Tyre and Sidon would have done had the gospel been preached to them:

MAT 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

I do not dispute that God knows all the KNOWABLE variables. That's what I said in my previous post. But the specific actions of persons with a genuine free will can only be predicted (perhaps with a very high degree of accuracy indeed), but they cannot be known by God or by anyone else. If they were known they would no longer be free.

God knows all future events. Because God is eternal and knows all things in one eternal act, events that are future to man are an "eternal now" to God. He knew the nations that would dominate Israel:

DAN 2:36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
DAN 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
DAN 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
DAN 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
DAN 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
DAN 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
DAN 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
DAN 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

DAN 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
DAN 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
DAN 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
DAN 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
DAN 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

I do not dispute God's ability to predict the future. Notice however that in this prophecy and in all others like it that no specific person named or even the name of a nation is given. God is able to bring such things to pass by an assortment of means, none of which require His seeing the future in advance or His existing outside of time. Nothing you've quoted requires that at all.

and He knows the events that will yet transpire upon the earth (Matt. 24-25; Rev. 6-19).

Again, I do not dispute that God is a God of prophecy, only that He doesn't need to be outside of time or to be able to see the future in advance in order to be able to make a prophecy. God is much smarter and more powerful than you give Him credit for, He does not need to cheat by sneaking a peak in order to confidently predict what men will do.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I want to thank you for actually engaging the debate! This is probably the most substance this issue has seen in six months on this site.

 

[Poly]

God is able to bring such things to pass by an assortment of means, none of which require His seeing the future in advance or His existing outside of time. Nothing you've quoted requires that at all.


Again, I do not dispute that God is a God of prophecy, only that He doesn't need to be outside of time or to be able to see the future in advance in order to be able to make a prophecy. God is much smarter and more powerful than you give Him credit for, He does not need to cheat by sneaking a peak in order to confidently predict what men will do.

Great points, Clete. I find it interesting that people feel if you believe that God didn't predestine everything or look into the future, you're limiting God but it's the very ones that do believe this that limit Him. They don't feel God is powerful, smart or wise enough to cause things to come about, in all confidence, without having planned every detail. They're attitude is "Sorry, God, you have to be a God that pre-plans things cause we just don't trust you enough to cause things to come to pass or be glorified unless you do." I believe in a God who is way more powerful than that. He gives man a true freewill and still He is victorious. Man's freewill will never take away from the Glory that is His.