ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
godrulz,

So the mind of Paul was blinded by Satan and he resisted the grace of God.But the Calvinists teach that the grace of God is "irresistible".

How is it possible that Paul could resist the grace of God?

And if the grace of God is iresistible then how can the following people "resist the Spirit"?

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye"(Acts7:51).

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html
 
Last edited:

ChristisKing

New member
Jerry Shugart said:
Godrulz,

You obviously cannot understand this simple thing.According to the Calvinists there are two classes of men.One class is the elect.The mind of those people cannot be blinded to the gospel.It is impossible.

The other class is all the rest of mankind.Their mind is permanently blinded to the gospel because the Lord did not give them the ability to believe.So their mind cannot be blinded because it is already blind.

But Paul is describing men whose minds have been blinded:

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them"(2Cor.4:4).

Again,these men cannot be the elect because the elect cannot be blinded,and it cannot be in regard to the rest of mankind because their mind has always been blind.You cannot blind one who is already blind.

Who is Paul speking of being blinded by Satan?

Jerry,

The other thing I obviously can't understand is why you are calling me godrulz?!? :confused:

I can't believe you don't see this! Every single person on earth, since all are sinners, is blinded by satan to not see, hear and understand the gospel, everyone!!! See verse 4 just right above your verse:

2CO 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Paul was chief amongst those blinded lost sinners. According to Scripture, the only difference between the elect and the non-elect is God opens the eyes of the elect like verses 6 and 7 state in 2 Cor 4, only two verses down from your verse, and grants them repentance as 2 Tim 2:25 states.

God does not open the eyes of the non-elect nor does He grant them repentance as John 12 below states, so they die blind and in their sins.

JOH 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
JOH 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
JOH 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
ChristisKing,

Please excuse me for calling you "godrulz".It was unintentional.

You said:
God does not open the eyes of the non-elect nor does He grant them repentance as John 12 below states, so they die blind and in their sins.

So are you saying that Satan does blind the mind of the non-elect so that they cannot believe the gospel?
I can't believe you don't see this! Every single person on earth, since all are sinners, is blinded by satan to not see, hear and understand the gospel, everyone!!!
Ealier you quoted verses in order to prove that it was the Lord who blinded men so that they cannot be saved,but now you say that it was Satan.

And Calvinists teach that only the elect can come to Christ because the Lord does not give faith to some men.Therefore,the non-elect do not come to the truth because they have not been given "faith".However,the following words prove that that is why they do not come to Him:

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light"(Jn.19,20).

Next,according to you the mind of Paul was blinded by Satan.Therefore,he resisted the grace of God.But the Calvinists teach that the grace of God is "irresistible".

How is it possible that Paul could resist the grace of God?

And if the grace of God is iresistible then how can the following people "resist the Spirit"?

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye"(Acts7:51).

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html
 
Last edited:

ChristisKing

New member
Jerry Shugart said:
ChristisKing,

Please excuse me for calling you "godrulz".It was unintentional.

Of course!!! :e4e:

Jerry Shugart said:
Ealier you quoted verses in order to prove that it was the Lord who blinded men so that they cannot be saved,but now you say that it was Satan.

It's not me Jerry, it's Scripture stating all this. Scripture also reveals how the Lord uses satan for His purposes:

JOB 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

JOB 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

Satan can't do a single thing without the Sovereign Lord's permission. That's another beautifully comforting thing about God being the Sovereign over all creation.

Jerry Shugart said:
So the mind of Paul was blinded by Satan and he resisted the grace of God.But the Calvinists teach that the grace of God is "irresistible".

How is it possible that Paul could resist the grace of God?

Paul couldn't resist God's irresistble grace, remember when the Lord saved Paul against his will? Could he, did he resist? That was God's effectual call to Paul for salvation. We are all born lost, blind and enslaved to satan. There is no resisting the Holy Spirit here....it just comes natural because we are what we are, we're born blind, lost sinners who can't even resist that!

Jerry Shugart said:
And if the grace of God is iresistible then how can the following people "resist the Spirit"?

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye"(Acts7:51).

I'll give you a good example how this can be. The Holy Spirit performed miracles by the hand of Christ. He did so as an "ordained means" and a sign for the elect to believe, yet the non-elect refused to believe. They resisted the work of the Holy Spirit yet God never intended to "open their eyes" or "grant them repentance" unto life."

The non-elect and elect are so interdispersed among each other that the non-elect will see miracles, hear the Gospel, sense it's power and even see and hear signs from heaven above that are only intended, as a God ordained means, to bring in the elect. So as they experience these things from above their resistance is deemed a "resistance of the Holy Spirit."

Of course, God's people can also resist the Holy Spirit after salvation, what they can not resist is their new birth by the Holy Spirit. Just like you can't resist your physical birth by your mom, you can't resisit your spiritual birth by the Holy Spirit.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
ChristisKing said:
It's not me Jerry, it's Scripture stating all this. Scripture also reveals how the Lord uses satan for His purposes:
ChristisKing,

The Calvinist teach that man is born without the ability to believe or understand the things of God:
We are all born lost, blind and enslaved to satan.
If that is true,how can Satan blind the mind of those who are already blind?
Paul couldn't resist God's irresistble grace, remember when the Lord saved Paul against his will? Could he, did he resist?
Yes,all the time that he was attacking believers he was resisting the grace of God.

And you did not answer the following point that I raised:

Calvinists teach that only the elect can come to Christ because the Lord does not give faith to some men.Therefore,the non-elect do not come to the truth because they have not been given "faith".However,the following words prove that that is why they do not come to Him:

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light"(Jn.19,20).

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html
 

ChristisKing

New member
Jerry Shugart said:
ChristisKing,

The Calvinist teach that man is born without the ability to believe or understand the things of God:

If that is true,how can Satan blind the mind of those who are already blind?

Jerry,

I think you surely must know and believe this already. There are two kingdoms, the Kingdom of God, which is also called the Kingdom of Light in Scripture, and kingdom of satan, which is also called the kingdom of darkness in Scripture. Everyone is born into one and resides in only one these two kingdoms. The Scriptures teach that we, as sinners, are all born into the kingdom of satan and darkness and satan is our father and slavemaster.

We are all born as slaves to sin and satan and that is why the Scriptures teach that satan blinds all the lost, it is because they are his slaves to blind!

Jerry Shugart said:
Calvinists teach that only the elect can come to Christ because the Lord does not give faith to some men.Therefore,the non-elect do not come to the truth because they have not been given "faith".However,the following words prove that that is why they do not come to Him:

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light"(Jn.19,20).

This is all true!

But God has mercy on some, as He did after the pattern of grace given to Paul, and gives them faith in spite of their wickedness and evil. And when He does have mercy on them He gives them faith and they are translated into the Kingdom of Light, in spite of their wickedness and of being enemies of God.

COL 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
ChristisKing,

You evaded my question.Here it is again.

The Calvinist teach that man is born without the ability to believe or understand the things of God.You said:
We are all born lost, blind and enslaved to satan.
If that is true,how can Satan blind the mind of those who are already blind?

Are you saying that Satan blinded them before they were even born?

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html
 
Last edited:

ChristisKing

New member
Jerry Shugart said:
ChristisKing,

You evaded my question.Here it is again.

The Calvinist teach that man is born without the ability to believe or understand the things of God.You said:

If that is true,how can Satan blind the mind of those who are already blind?

Jerry,

Don't be so judgmental, I haven't evaded your question, you're just not understanding the answer. Here it is again:

He blinds us at birth when we are born into his kingdom as sinners, and he keeps us blind until we either die or until he's forced to release us by someone stronger than him.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
ChristisKing,

Sorry but I did not understand what you were saying.The Calvinists say that this blindness came from their corrupted nature that came from Adam:

From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.(Westminster Confession of Faith,Chaper 6, # 4).

According to this men were born blind from the orignal corruption so why would Satan need to blind them?

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html
 

lee_merrill

New member
Hi everyone,

Jerry Shugart said:
According to this men were born blind from the orignal corruption so why would Satan need to blind them?

Like this, maybe?

Matthew 13:12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.

He doesn't have, and what he has is taken from him.

Or here:

Isaiah 29:9-10 Be stunned and amazed, blind yourselves and be sightless; be drunk, but not from wine, stagger, but not from beer. The Lord has brought over you a deep sleep: He has sealed your eyes (the prophets); he has covered your heads (the seers).

Their eyes are sealed, and yet they can blind themselves. Or here, even:

Revelation 3:17-18 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.

So that shadow of sight, which is not real sight, even that can be taken, so people are indeed born blind, and the devil yet can blind them.

John 9:40-41 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?" 41 Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."

Blessings,
Lee
 

ChristisKing

New member
Jerry Shugart said:
ChristisKing,

Sorry but I did not understand what you were saying.The Calvinists say that this blindness came from their corrupted nature that came from Adam:

From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.(Westminster Confession of Faith,Chaper 6, # 4).

According to this men were born blind from the orignal corruption so why would Satan need to blind them?

The Scripture says this corrupted nature comes from satan and as sinners satan is our father. So being the good father that he is, he ensures the corrupted nature he gives us is fully equipped with blindness, among other nice gifts. We are born blind with our corrupted nature given to us by our father the devil:

JOH 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

JOH 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. ...

JOH 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
ChristisKing said:
The Scripture says this corrupted nature comes from satan and as sinners satan is our father. So being the good father that he is, he ensures the corrupted nature he gives us is fully equipped with blindness, among other nice gifts. We are born blind with our corrupted nature given to us by our father the devil:

JOH 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

JOH 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. ...

JOH 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
ChristisKing,

This is not what the Calvinsts teach.They do not say that man's utter ability to see the gospel is because Satan is their father.Instead they say that man is blind because they are the children of Adam and Eve:

"Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptation of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation"("Westminster Confession of Faith",Chapter 6, # 1,2,3).

So what you are saying directly contradicts what the Calvinists teach.

If man is blinded to the truths of the gospel at birth because he is the posterity of Adam and Eve then how can Satan "blind the mind" of anyone whose mind is already blinded?

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them"(2Cor.4:4).

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html
 

ChristisKing

New member
Jerry Shugart said:
ChristisKing,

This is not what the Calvinsts teach.They do not say that man's utter ability to see the gospel is because Satan is their father.Instead they say that man is blind because they are the children of Adam and Eve:

So what you are saying directly contradicts what the Calvinists teach.

If man is blinded to the truths of the gospel at birth because he is the posterity of Adam and Eve then how can Satan "blind the mind" of anyone whose mind is already blinded?

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them"(2Cor.4:4).

The Scriptures never contradict themselves Jerry.

The Scriptures and Christ specifically teach that we are all born in sin because of Adam and Eve, that satan is the father of sin, and that satan is our father before we are born again. So Adam is our physical father but satan is our spiritual father as a lost person at birth. You know all this is true, and you know this is what Calvinists believe.

Do you really think satan becomes a lost person's father at some point later in life other than at birth and then blinds them?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
ChristisKing,

You said:
The Scripture says this corrupted nature comes from satan and as sinners satan is our father.
But Calvinism teaches that man's corrupted nature comes from Adam and Eve:
"Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptation of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation"("Westminster Confession of Faith",Chapter 6, # 1,2,3).
And since you cannot explain how Satan can blind the minds of those whose minds are already blind you must say something,even if it explains nothing:
So Adam is our physical father but satan is our spiritual father as a lost person at birth. You know all this is true, and you know this is what Calvinists believe.
This still does not explain how Satan can blind the mind of a person whose mind is blind at birth.
In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-..._made_easy.html
 

lee_merrill

New member
Hi Jerry,

Jerry Shugart said:
This still does not explain how Satan can blind the mind of a person whose mind is blind at birth.
There are lots of verses like that, as the previous post I posted, how else can these verses be interpreted? Repeating the question here does not give us your answer...

Blessings,
Lee
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Jerry Shugart said:
Lee,

My answer is simple.The minds of men are not blinded at birth.

How simple can this be?

If Satan is blinding the minds of men so that the light of the gospel cannot shine to them it is because their minds are not blind at birth.

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-..._made_easy.html

Babies do not have mental and moral capacity at birth to receive or reject truth. As we develop this capacity, we become responsible for rejecting light. As we reject light through God's witness in creation and His Word, we become blinder. Satan adds to this blinding/deception, but it starts with us (James 1). The Holy Spirit uses truth and conviction to break through this. If we respond to His light, we will be set free. If we reject the light we have, our condemnation only increases. The hardness of man's heart and the lies of Satan contribute to our blindness, but we do have capacity to respond to or reject the truth about the person and work of Christ.
 

ChristisKing

New member
Jerry Shugart said:
Lee,

My answer is simple.The minds of men are not blinded at birth.

How simple can this be?

Too simple and way too unbiblical.

PSA 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

PSA 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

JOH 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, ....for he is a liar, and the father of it.

I hope the following extract is Calvinistic enough on this subject for you Jerry, it certainly is biblical enough!

Calvin's Institutes

Book 2: Chapter 4. HOW GOD WORKS IN THE HEARTS OF MEN

1.That man is so enslaved by the yoke of sin, that he cannot of his own nature aim at good either in wish or actual pursuit, has, I think, been sufficiently proved. Moreover, a distinction has been drawn between compulsion and necessity, making it clear that man, though he sins necessarily, nevertheless sins voluntarily. But since, from his being brought into bondage to the devil, it would seem that he is actuated more by the devil's will than his own, it is necessary, first, to explain what the agency of each is, and then solve the question. Whether in bad actions anything is to be attributed to God, Scripture intimating that there is some way in which he interferes? Augustine (in Psalm 31 and 33) compares the human will to a horse preparing to start, and God and the devil to riders. "If God mounts, he, like a temperate and skilful rider, guides it calmly, urges it when too slow, reins it in when too fast, curbs its forwardness and over-action, checks its bad temper, and keeps it on the proper course; but if the devil has seized the saddle, like an ignorant and rash rider, he hurries it over broken ground, drives it into ditches, dashes it over precipices, spurs it into obstinacy or fury." With this simile, since a better does not occur, we shall for the present be contented. When it is said, then, that the will of the natural man is subject to the power of the devil, and is actuated by him, the meaning is not that the wills while reluctant and resisting, is forced to submit, (as masters oblige unwilling slaves to execute their orders,) but that, fascinated by the impostures of Satan, it necessarily yields to his guidance, and does him homage. Those whom the Lord favours not with the direction of his Spirit, he, by a righteous judgement, consigns to the agency of Satan. Wherefore, the Apostle says, that "the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine into them." And, in another passage, he describes the devil as "the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience," (Eph. 2: 2.) The blinding of the wicked, and all the iniquities consequent upon it, are called the works of Satan; works the cause of which is not to be Sought in anything external to the will of man, in which the root of the evil lies, and in which the foundation of Satan's kingdom, in other words, sin, is fixed.

Calvin's Commentary on John 8:44:

"When men, therefore, are born children of the devil, it must not be imputed to creation, but to the blame of sin."
 
Last edited:

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
ChristisKing said:
Too simple and way too unbiblical.

PSA 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Let's compare Psalm 51:5 with Job 1:21, which says: "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither." If Psalm 51:5 can be interpreted literally to teach the doctrine that David and all other men are born sinners, then Job 1:21 can be interpreted literally to teach the doctrine that Job and all other men will some day go back into their mother's womb.

Neither Psalm 51:5 nor Job 1:21 is to be understood literally. They are both figurative expressions. Both context and our knowledge of reality demand a figurative interpretation of these two texts.

David uses figurative language throughout his Psalms. In fact, in the 51st Psalm, verses five, seven, and eight are all figurative expressions. So if verse five can be made to teach that men are born sinners, then verse seven can be made to teach that hyssop cleanses us from sin when it says, "Purge me with hyssop and I shall be clean." Also, verse eight can be made to teach the doctrine that God breaks the Christian's bones when he sins, and that his broken bones rejoice when he is forgiven.
(A.T.Overstreet)
PSA 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
This text is also supposed to teach that men are born sinners. But like the last text, it is not literal but figurative. If it were literal, it would teach that babies speak and tell lies as soon as they are born, and that they alienate themselves from God, and go astray from him immediately upon coming out of the womb.(A.T.Overstreet)
JOH 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, ....for he is a liar, and the father of it.
We know that little babies are not children of the devil. They are children of God. Jesus said of them: "Of such is the kingdom of God." Luke 18:16. God's Word testifies that "children are an heritage of the Lord; and the fruit of the womb is his reward." Psalm 127:3. Jesus would not have said, "Of such is the kingdom of God," if children were literally "estranged from God from their mother's womb."(A.T.Overstreet)

There are verses that can be taken literally such as the following:

"Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions"(Eccl.7:29).

And how can someone who is described as a son of the devil be said to be made in the similitude of God:?

"Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, who are made after the similitude of God"(Jms.3:9).

The Calvinists teach that a man is born spiritually dead but the Scriptures declare that a man dies spiritually when he sins.Here are Paul's own words in regard to his own experience:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death"(Ro.7:9,10).

He is obviously speaking of "spiritual" death because he said that he "died" and that could not be speaking of physical death.And since it is the breaking of law that caused his own spiritual death he says that the law is "the ministration of death":

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away"(2Cor.6,7).

Paul was alive spiritually at one time so he surely wasn't born spiritually dead.

The teaching of original sin comes directly from Rome.So there is no wonder that Calvin cites Augustine to back up his ideas.

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-..._made_easy.html
 

ChristisKing

New member
Jerry Shugart said:
The teaching of original sin comes directly from Rome.So there is no wonder that Calvin cites Augustine to back up his ideas.


So, as I suspected, you have adopted an unorthodox doctrine that men are not born sinners. This is a heresy condemned by the Church all the way back to the Apostle Paul. Your simplistic misinterpretation and twisting of Scripture has brought you to a camp that claims all men are born righteous. Scripture plainly refutes you and may the Lord stop you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top