ARCHIVE: Is it ever right to deny Christ?

[Freak]

The Holy Scriptures speak of Jesus declaring in no certain terms that-"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

The Lord Jesus Christ is absolutely clear. You cannot
intentionally deny Him and be right with God. It is puzzling why some believers on TOL would indirectly infer you can deny Jesus and still be right with Him. I cannot think of any circumstance where denying Him would be righteous. Can you?

Thank God for the martyrs that shed their blood for their faith in Christ.

As the apostle John put it: He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

Overcoming (and not denying Jesus) even in the midst of death has its rewards...

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Sheepdog
I would have had no problem in any respect, if the young high school girl at Columbine had said no to the question from her murderers "Are you a Christian". There was absolutely no need to surrender her life for the cause of 2 highly confused idiots.

Did her admitting her faith help her assailants? She knew their intent. The tragedy of that event is the religious legalism that was indoctrinated to this child, that she, under no circumstances, can ever deny her faith.

Every situation is different. And it would be a very rare occasion to ever deny, but we cannot say there is never one.

Sheepdog says: "Did her admitting her faith help her assailants?" Not sure. But she sure did impact the country and the world. But what circumstance can you think of that would allow such denial? Throughout the centuries believers have died for their faith without ever denying Him.

I speak of personal experience, I have been confronted with either denial or death or serious injury or Christ. I stood for Christ (though it was very difficult-nobody wants to die) and God supernaturally spared me.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Sheepdog


So if a gun toting manic walks up a public street and yells out loud "I'm going to kill every Christian I see today... excuse me sir are you a Christian?" Are you telling me that your going to respond "Yes"? Not me! I would say no, and then we he turns to go after the next Christian, I would then risk my life to save the life of others by jumping on his back and trying to take his gun. What good am I to the other people he is after, if I am laying there dead?

Sheepdog, I'm surprised by your response. It is a honor to die for Christ.

To answer your question: I would say, "Yes, I'm a Christian" and I would try to disarm the man if possible (if not trust God like the early believers with my life and share the Gospel with him. I have been put in situations like this by militant Muslims. I would never think of deny Him in front of them, you'd miss a great witness opportunity.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

If an unbeliever denies Christ his whole life that is the WORST possible thing he could do because he will suffer in hell for an eternity. I.e. the verse Freak references.

But what about a "saved" person who is coerced into denying Christ, or denies Christ as an act?

Let's take three examples:

1. Imagine some nut ball on drugs breaks into your house. He says.... "I am on a mission to slaughter Christians". He aims his shotgun at your kids and asks... "Is this a Christian family?". To save your kids you tell the nut "hey I don't know what your talking about our family is agnostic".

2. Imagine if someone were incoherent for whatever reason. Maybe they were highly medicated for health reasons. And while their faculties were lost another person tricked them into simply saying that they denied Christ.

3. Imagine your son Billy gets the role as Peter in the church play. As "Peter", Billy must "act" as if he is denying Christ.

Think about those three circumstances.

Do you think our relationship with God is so shallow that God doesn't know our true hearts and how we REALLY feel about Him? Don't you think God would know we were just "acting" or being coerced?

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Knight
If an unbeliever denies Christ his whole life that is the WORST possible thing he could do because he will suffer in hell for an eternity. I.e. the verse Freak references.

But what about a "saved" person who is coerced into denying Christ, or denies Christ as an act?

Let's take three examples:

1. Imagine some nut ball on drugs breaks into your house. He says.... "I am on a mission to slaughter Christians". He aims his shotgun at your kids and asks... "Is this a Christian family?". To save your kids you tell the nut "hey I don't know what your talking about our family is agnostic".

2. Imagine if someone were incoherent for whatever reason. Maybe they were highly medicated for health reasons. And while their faculties were lost another person tricked them into simply saying that they denied Christ.

3. Imagine your son Billy gets the role as Peter in the church play. As "Peter", Billy must "act" as if he is denying Christ.

Think about those three circumstances.

Do you think our relationship with God is so shallow that God doesn't know our true hearts and how we REALLY feel about Him? Don't you think God would know we were just "acting" or being coerced?

This is easy. First question is trust God with your lives. Try to disarm the man but you should never deny Jesus.

Second question is abusrd. I'm talking about intentionally denying Christ.

Third question is another absurd question. I'm speaking of intentionally denying Christ.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Sheepdog


That's fine! But, I don't think it is an honor to commit suicide for Christ out of pride.

Who ever said that? Nobody REALLY wants to die. But if your put in no other position then don't deny Jesus though.

 

[Freak]

Knight, I'm really surprised by your responses. Intentionally denying Jesus is absolutely wrong. If it isn't I'm not sure what is then.

 

[Calvinist]

Freak is confused as ussual. How is it that I, a newcomer to TOL, understand that Freak is confused and no one else seems to be? He has no idea what he believes and spouts off all kinds of rubbish based on what he "feels" to be truth.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Calvinist
Freak is confused as ussual. How is it that I, a newcomer to TOL, understand that Freak is confused and no one else seems to be? He has no idea what he believes and spouts off all kinds of rubbish based on what he "feels" to be truth.

Jesus said: "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

Now, who's confused?

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Sheepdog


What I am saying is, each situation needs careful evaluation. God knows my heart, and knows that I would never deny Him, but just saying something doesn't make it real. I have no problem with deceiving someone to save a life, even my own. Jesus did it, and so did many other bible characters.

That's fair. But I'm speaking of intentionally denying Jesus.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Freak


That's fair. But I'm speaking of intentionally denying Jesus.

Intentionally denying Jesus is absolutely wrong. Would anybody disagree with that?

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Freak


Intentionally denying Jesus is absolutely wrong. Would anybody disagree with that?

I have a feeling some are trying to look for a loophole just to disagree with Freak (namely Knight).

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Sheepdog


If anyone has been saying otherwise, then I would disagree with them. But, I believe that what has been said about denying Jesus, or lying has nothing to do with what is actually believed in their heart, but only to deceive others who have malicious intent.

I made it clear on my first post-I'm speaking on intentionally denying Jesus. Knight seems to be having some trouble though...not sure why....

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Freak


This is easy. First question is trust God with your lives. Try to disarm the man but you should never deny Jesus.

Say goodbye to your kids.

You continue...

Second question is abusrd. I'm talking about intentionally denying Christ.

No, its not absurd Freak because in none of these examples are you REALLY denying Christ! Your only doing it out of coercion or as an act! Which is the crux of the question.

You continue....

Third question is another absurd question. I'm speaking of intentionally denying Christ.

Again Freak in your haste to act self righteous you are missing the entire crux of the debate.

Intentionally denying Christ (without coercion or as an act) would be wrong! Nobody is saying otherwise.

And it IS noble to die for Christ.

But there ARE situations that would make dying for Christ NOT noble, especially when it comes to a situation where other lives are at stake besides your own!

Since when are we held hostage by truth for the intention of obliging wickedness?

Freak, you don't believe a Christian can lose their salvation do you?

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Knight
Say goodbye to your kids.

You continue...No, its not absurd Freak because in none of these examples are you REALLY denying Christ! Your only doing it out of coercion or as an act! Which is the crux of the question.

You continue....Again Freak in your haste to act self righteous you are missing the entire crux of the debate.

Intentionally denying Christ (without coercion or as an act) would be wrong! Nobody is saying otherwise.

And it IS noble to die for Christ.

But there ARE situations that would make dying for Christ NOT noble, especially when it comes to a situation where other lives are at stake besides your own!

Since when are we held hostage by truth for the intention of obliging wickedness?

Freak, you don't believe a Christian can lose their salvation do you?

Knight, you said: But there ARE situations that would make dying for Christ NOT noble, especially when it comes to a situation where other lives are at stake besides your own!

The question I'm raising is it right to ever intentionally deny Christ? You answered no. That's good.

Then you go on: Since when are we held hostage by truth for the intention of obliging wickedness?

We are held hostage to Christ and Christ calls us to not deny Him. Deny yourself, Jesus said, and take up your Cross and follow Him, even if meant losing your precious family. My parents who are retired missionaries had to lay down their lives and those around them for Christ and it is noble.

No, I do not believe a follower of Christ can lose their salvation. Romans 8:30 speaks clearly on that issue. I do question however ones salvation if they intentionally deny Christ in light of what Jesus said.

 

[Yxboom]

As legalistic as Freak is it is a complete contradition that he would oppose the death penalty. He is a very very confused man. To deny Christ is from the heart and not the lips.

 

[Yxboom]

Originally posted by Freak

No, I do not believe a follower of Christ can lose their salvation. Romans 8:30 speaks clearly on that issue. I do question however ones salvation if they intentionally deny Christ in light of what Jesus said.

That is because you are a confused legalist and fail to realize that God seeks relationships more than shallow words in a sin-cursed world.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

That is my point too Yx...and it is not a one-time thing. Trying to use Matthew 10 and Luke 12 to say that is is just wrong-headed.

I am glad Freak started this thread, perhaps the other one on whether or not lying is never righteous will get to stay on track.

 

[Yxboom]

Originally posted by Calvinist
Freak is confused as ussual. How is it that I, a newcomer to TOL, understand that Freak is confused and no one else seems to be? He has no idea what he believes and spouts off all kinds of rubbish based on what he "feels" to be truth.

It must be your undeniable super-empowered perceptive abilities that revealed to you that DDW was a female .

 

[Calvinist]

Originally posted by Yxboom


It must be your undeniable super-empowered perceptive abilities that revealed to you that DDW was a female .

You mean the same powers that revealed to me that DDW was a female enlighted to me that Freak is confused?