ARCHIVE:God is NOT an OV'er (He said so)
- Thread starter geoff
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themuzicman
Well-known member
Well, it does explain that circumstances overcome our own plans and desires.
There is no indication that God's knows existentially what each person will go through. He's just saying that no man is an island, and no one can resist the force of time and circumstance.
Nice try, but...
Michael
There is no indication that God's knows existentially what each person will go through. He's just saying that no man is an island, and no one can resist the force of time and circumstance.
Nice try, but...
Michael
themuzicman
Well-known member
Geoff:
Look at the verse carefully. All the items listed, Pestilence, War, Famine and Captivity, are things one man cannot control.
If pestilence or famine comes upon a group, there isn't any free will issue as to whether everyone will be affected or not. Everyone will. The happenings of nature are inextricably a part of what we are destined for. This would be like me declaring that the people of Miami are destined for a hurricane. Am I God? No. How can I make such a declaration? Hurricanes happen in Miami.
Similar argument with war and captivity. Neither a war coming to Isreal, nor the captivity of the Isreali people was something an individual could control. These things happen outside the will of the men thrown into war and taken into captivity. And, again, I can declare that people will die in wars fought, and that doesn't make me God. It means I have a basic understanding of world politics.
You're trying to make this verse sound as though what is said is some kind of massive prophecy, when the truth is that it's simply a truth of life.
Furthermore, I know that God frequently made prophecies about Isreal going into captivity, but even this does not imply foreknowledge. What it tells us is that God is active in the world today, bringing about His will, and even calls his own shots.
You make it sound as though God is just sitting in heaven, watching the world go around, and just mentioning to us what's going to happen. When you figure out that God is active and working in today's world, bringing about His will, existential foreknowledge becomes superfluous and unbiblical.
FYI, your analysis, should it come in MY class, would result in a gentle rebuke for trying to make scripture fit your theology, rather than the other way around. If it had to grade it, you'd get a 'F' for a lack of effort.
Michael
Look at the verse carefully. All the items listed, Pestilence, War, Famine and Captivity, are things one man cannot control.
If pestilence or famine comes upon a group, there isn't any free will issue as to whether everyone will be affected or not. Everyone will. The happenings of nature are inextricably a part of what we are destined for. This would be like me declaring that the people of Miami are destined for a hurricane. Am I God? No. How can I make such a declaration? Hurricanes happen in Miami.
Similar argument with war and captivity. Neither a war coming to Isreal, nor the captivity of the Isreali people was something an individual could control. These things happen outside the will of the men thrown into war and taken into captivity. And, again, I can declare that people will die in wars fought, and that doesn't make me God. It means I have a basic understanding of world politics.
You're trying to make this verse sound as though what is said is some kind of massive prophecy, when the truth is that it's simply a truth of life.
Furthermore, I know that God frequently made prophecies about Isreal going into captivity, but even this does not imply foreknowledge. What it tells us is that God is active in the world today, bringing about His will, and even calls his own shots.
You make it sound as though God is just sitting in heaven, watching the world go around, and just mentioning to us what's going to happen. When you figure out that God is active and working in today's world, bringing about His will, existential foreknowledge becomes superfluous and unbiblical.
FYI, your analysis, should it come in MY class, would result in a gentle rebuke for trying to make scripture fit your theology, rather than the other way around. If it had to grade it, you'd get a 'F' for a lack of effort.
Michael
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1013
Post Modern Fundamentalist
Jaltus, the begining of jermiah 18 is significant for the open view paradigm since God anounces that he may change his plans contingently upon the response of a people that he has blessed or threatened.
graqnted Jerimaiah says, "but they will say "it is no use, we will follow our own plans..."
So does this negate the opennes contention that free choices are unknowable? At most, It may negates that free choices are always unknowable. People harden there hearts and it is reasonable that the people of israel were too far gone and there hearts were hardened to the point that what thier response would be was a clear fact of the matter. people develope habits and mindsets and thier free actions would no longer be indeterminate but instead hae been detertmined by thier past behavior. Since they could no longer change thier ways any more a lepeord his spots, only tragedy could break them out of this, thus God announced thier punishment. "I will scatter them before the enemy."
thus, this is not that problematic for the open view.
By the way, Jermiah 3:7 is the most expicite case where the open view naturally arises.
graqnted Jerimaiah says, "but they will say "it is no use, we will follow our own plans..."
So does this negate the opennes contention that free choices are unknowable? At most, It may negates that free choices are always unknowable. People harden there hearts and it is reasonable that the people of israel were too far gone and there hearts were hardened to the point that what thier response would be was a clear fact of the matter. people develope habits and mindsets and thier free actions would no longer be indeterminate but instead hae been detertmined by thier past behavior. Since they could no longer change thier ways any more a lepeord his spots, only tragedy could break them out of this, thus God announced thier punishment. "I will scatter them before the enemy."
thus, this is not that problematic for the open view.
By the way, Jermiah 3:7 is the most expicite case where the open view naturally arises.
themuzicman
Well-known member
Ooooh... Stunning rebuttal
Yes, I've read it. God is simply telling the Children of Isreal what is going to happen to them. There is no implication of existential foreknowledge there at all.
Your grade is still 'F'.
Michael
themuzicman
Well-known member
Gee, Jeremiah 18:11 seems to indicate an Open View. If God already knew what was going to happen, why would he need to begin the process of fashioning a plan against them? Wouldn't he already know the plan before this time?
Even the story about the potter, when the item he was working on spoiled, and he remade it into something else. If there is a metaphore there, it indicates that God changed the plans he had for Isreal, because they had spoiled. VERY open view.
Michael
Even the story about the potter, when the item he was working on spoiled, and he remade it into something else. If there is a metaphore there, it indicates that God changed the plans he had for Isreal, because they had spoiled. VERY open view.
Michael
geoff
New member
Actually the passage says that if someone listens to His prophets, God will not do that which He says He will do if they dont listen to His prophets.
It has nothing to do with -changing his mind- which is the point. God is reassuring His people that He is not a fickle, capricious God, like the Baals of the other nations.
Fact is, if God doesnt know the outcome of His dealings with Israel, He is less than the Baals, He might as well be a piece of wood, or stone crafted by human hands (any pick the imagery here). If He doesnt know what will come of His dealings with creation, how the heck is He going to bring about the future plans He has? By Guess work?
"well maybe if I say this thing to Israel, they will repent and turn back to me, but maybe they wont... well I will give it a go and see if it works... I really need them to decide one way or the other but, you know, they are such wilful people its really hard to know what they will do..."
--- 'the OV God' (crafted by human hand)
"I will say this thing to Israel, when they reject it and carry on in their evil way I will be justified in my punishing them"
"I will say this thing to This person, and they will accept it and turn from evil and I will restrain from punishing them"
--- 'the God of Scripture'
The difference is massive.
Back to the original verse.
God uses the word DESTINED. Also "those" and "they" and "them" to indicate specific peoples and groups of peoples made up of individuals.
Destined indicates caused. Verse 3-4 is enlightening:
3 And I will appoint over them four kinds of destroyers, says the Lord: the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, and the birds of the air and the wild animals of the earth to devour and destroy. 4 I will make them a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth because of what King Manasseh son of Hezekiah of Judah did in Jerusalem.
The New Revised Standard Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1989.
God will do, appoint, make.
God will cause these things.
God has destined these things
How do you get around that?
It has nothing to do with -changing his mind- which is the point. God is reassuring His people that He is not a fickle, capricious God, like the Baals of the other nations.
Fact is, if God doesnt know the outcome of His dealings with Israel, He is less than the Baals, He might as well be a piece of wood, or stone crafted by human hands (any pick the imagery here). If He doesnt know what will come of His dealings with creation, how the heck is He going to bring about the future plans He has? By Guess work?
"well maybe if I say this thing to Israel, they will repent and turn back to me, but maybe they wont... well I will give it a go and see if it works... I really need them to decide one way or the other but, you know, they are such wilful people its really hard to know what they will do..."
--- 'the OV God' (crafted by human hand)
"I will say this thing to Israel, when they reject it and carry on in their evil way I will be justified in my punishing them"
"I will say this thing to This person, and they will accept it and turn from evil and I will restrain from punishing them"
--- 'the God of Scripture'
The difference is massive.
Back to the original verse.
God uses the word DESTINED. Also "those" and "they" and "them" to indicate specific peoples and groups of peoples made up of individuals.
Destined indicates caused. Verse 3-4 is enlightening:
3 And I will appoint over them four kinds of destroyers, says the Lord: the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, and the birds of the air and the wild animals of the earth to devour and destroy. 4 I will make them a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth because of what King Manasseh son of Hezekiah of Judah did in Jerusalem.
The New Revised Standard Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1989.
God will do, appoint, make.
God will cause these things.
God has destined these things
How do you get around that?
Jeremiah 18:11 should be understood appropriately.
The correct view of the passage shows that the participle (yotzer) is generally understood as refering to the past, not the future or present. Note II Samuel 17:28, Jeremiah 33:2, Jeremiah 51:18, and Amos 7:1, all of which use the same word all of which are past. The translation is bad, and thus so are your conclusions.
The correct view of the passage shows that the participle (yotzer) is generally understood as refering to the past, not the future or present. Note II Samuel 17:28, Jeremiah 33:2, Jeremiah 51:18, and Amos 7:1, all of which use the same word all of which are past. The translation is bad, and thus so are your conclusions.
themuzicman
Well-known member
How about by being a powerful God who understands His creation and what He needs to do to accomplish His will? Or have you neglected the omnipotent power of God? Do you honestly think that God couldn't accomplish His will without fixing the game beforehand? Such a lack of faith!
That's not what any OVer has said. God is acting as one who knows His own creation, and understands what he needs to do in order to bring them back to Himself. You talk as though you think OVers believe that we aren't influenced by what happens to us. Which, of course, couldn't be further from the truth.
This is, of course, an attempt to take God's influence in the world out of the picture, to make it seem as though the OV would be impossible.
The OVer views God, not as a hapless deity who wrings his hands and issues prophecy and holds his breath. The OVer views God as a loving, powerful, and active God who influences this world to bring about His will, in spite of us. It is a God that is far more powerful that what you determinists believe in.
This could be the rest of foreknowledge, or it could be the result of an omnicient God who knows the minds and hearts of the people He is influencing, and what the result of His actions will be. This is in no way a proof of foreknowledge. (Again, grade 'F' for being presumptive upon scripture.)
Gee, you think God can see pestilence, famine, war, and capitivity coming in the near future without foreknowledge? Do you think He could cause such things, should He wish to? Gee, I think He could. Or isn't God powerful enough to do that, in your view?
If these things are coming, there isn't anything any one man or even a group can do about it. It happens. It's a part of your destiny. Such is life.
Simple. Foreknowledge isn't necessary for God to do these things. God is powerful enough to allow or bring about any one of these things without having to foreknow what will happen. God can MAKE destiny happen without foreknowledge.
Michael
themuzicman
Well-known member
Either past or present, why would God have to fashion plans at all? If everything was pre-determined, God would have no fashioning to do.
Michael
geoff
New member
muzic:
Foreknowing is not 'fixing' anything.. it is KNOWING... knowing can never have the property of 'fixing'. Its a false and erroneous assumption on your behalf.
What on earth are you on about?
It really makes me laugh when you lot have your imaginary conversations with imaginary people.... its actually kind of rude.. Imagine how your wife would feel if she asked you what you thought of her new blue dress, and you started pointing out all the things wrong with her green hair (she doesnt have green hair at all).
Without foreknowledge, God has no more ability to bring about the future, and bring his destiny for the world to pass than you do. Without foreknowledge, God is no better, in fact, worse of than me, because I DO have foreknowledge about some things. You have invented a god for yourself who is less than a man. Hope you're happy with him.
There you go again, ASSuming that I am saying something I am not saying. STOP reading your agenda into my posts.
Foreknowing is not 'fixing' anything.. it is KNOWING... knowing can never have the property of 'fixing'. Its a false and erroneous assumption on your behalf.
What on earth are you on about?
Who said it was proof of anything?
It really makes me laugh when you lot have your imaginary conversations with imaginary people.... its actually kind of rude.. Imagine how your wife would feel if she asked you what you thought of her new blue dress, and you started pointing out all the things wrong with her green hair (she doesnt have green hair at all).
Wrong.
Without foreknowledge, God has no more ability to bring about the future, and bring his destiny for the world to pass than you do. Without foreknowledge, God is no better, in fact, worse of than me, because I DO have foreknowledge about some things. You have invented a god for yourself who is less than a man. Hope you're happy with him.