Anyone ready a 2nd look at Sodom and G?
- Thread starter Ps82
- Start date
In order to begin with a thread which will permeate my reasoning let me just say: I believe God created an image so he could appear within his creation and use it in the Old and New Testaments.
This one image is first mentioned in Gen. 1:26-27 and is called "our image."One image to represent the ONE God. For God that works...
even though God acknowledges the magnitude of his own collective essence. In Fact, the first name listed for God in scripture is Elohim/Elohiym. Elohiym [sp?] is a collective noun, which is used in sentences to represent a plurality belonging to one group.
Now, I don't think God is a group of gods ... I believe He is an all encompassing spirit... but any God who is infinite, omni-present, and full of the essence of life and the power to create is too big for a singular definition.
Knowing that he created only ONE image to represent ALL of his greatness has led me to my opinions regarding Genesis 18.
PARAPHRASED: Check for your self.
Gen. 18:1 The LORD shows up to Abram. Abram looked up and saw three men who stood by him. He immediately ran to them and said, "My Lord, pass not away."
Did you notice Abram only mentioned the name "My Lord."
Do you know who Abram's Lord was?
Exodus 6:3 And I [God] appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them. I have also established my covenant with them. IOW, it was to Moses, who wrote the first five books of the law, to which God revealed his special name. God Almighty chose the name YHWH and KJE translates it as The LORD ... but it was the same one God. Moses was able to use THAT NAME correctly to convey truth.
Now, who was YHWH to Abram? It has to do with the covenant and promise made to Abraham part of which is this:
Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of The LORD/YHWH came unto Abram in a vision, saying, "Fear not, Abram: I AM thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
Abraham certainly knew who His LORD was. He had seen him! He was The WORD of God. Before Jesus the Christ came into the world Abraham knew of the days of his Lord and was glad of it. Even before Abraham was there was "I Am."
Now, Abram/Abraham never address the three lords with any other name other than "My Lord." He didn't ask who the other two were with his Lord ... He did not acknowledge the as Michael or Gabriel nor ever spoke of them by any other name ... only my Lord, my lords. The three who appeared were to him as if they were the one and only Lord who had appeared to him. He bowed to the ground before all three and treated them all equally.
Well, that made sense to me since I think the ONE God created ONE image to represent himself as the one God, but God is not limited to manifesting his presence as one individual. Even if 25 had shown up ... it wouldn't have mattered to Abram because he saw before him his Lord, his shield and his exceeding great reward.
With man this duplication of self is impossible ... except maybe through AI. Even so all the image created by AI would not be alive even though they looked like it. But these three were alive enough to eat a meal and exhibit a freewill.
Conclusion of the Lord who appeared to Abraham is this:
God appeared unto Abram as three duplicates of the one image of the one God. Now, this conclusion will lead to an interesting take on who went into Sodom and Gomorrah and when.
I hope someone is interested to see what really happened there.
This one image is first mentioned in Gen. 1:26-27 and is called "our image."One image to represent the ONE God. For God that works...
even though God acknowledges the magnitude of his own collective essence. In Fact, the first name listed for God in scripture is Elohim/Elohiym. Elohiym [sp?] is a collective noun, which is used in sentences to represent a plurality belonging to one group.
Now, I don't think God is a group of gods ... I believe He is an all encompassing spirit... but any God who is infinite, omni-present, and full of the essence of life and the power to create is too big for a singular definition.
Knowing that he created only ONE image to represent ALL of his greatness has led me to my opinions regarding Genesis 18.
PARAPHRASED: Check for your self.
Gen. 18:1 The LORD shows up to Abram. Abram looked up and saw three men who stood by him. He immediately ran to them and said, "My Lord, pass not away."
Did you notice Abram only mentioned the name "My Lord."
Do you know who Abram's Lord was?
Exodus 6:3 And I [God] appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them. I have also established my covenant with them. IOW, it was to Moses, who wrote the first five books of the law, to which God revealed his special name. God Almighty chose the name YHWH and KJE translates it as The LORD ... but it was the same one God. Moses was able to use THAT NAME correctly to convey truth.
Now, who was YHWH to Abram? It has to do with the covenant and promise made to Abraham part of which is this:
Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of The LORD/YHWH came unto Abram in a vision, saying, "Fear not, Abram: I AM thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
Abraham certainly knew who His LORD was. He had seen him! He was The WORD of God. Before Jesus the Christ came into the world Abraham knew of the days of his Lord and was glad of it. Even before Abraham was there was "I Am."
Now, Abram/Abraham never address the three lords with any other name other than "My Lord." He didn't ask who the other two were with his Lord ... He did not acknowledge the as Michael or Gabriel nor ever spoke of them by any other name ... only my Lord, my lords. The three who appeared were to him as if they were the one and only Lord who had appeared to him. He bowed to the ground before all three and treated them all equally.
Well, that made sense to me since I think the ONE God created ONE image to represent himself as the one God, but God is not limited to manifesting his presence as one individual. Even if 25 had shown up ... it wouldn't have mattered to Abram because he saw before him his Lord, his shield and his exceeding great reward.
With man this duplication of self is impossible ... except maybe through AI. Even so all the image created by AI would not be alive even though they looked like it. But these three were alive enough to eat a meal and exhibit a freewill.
Conclusion of the Lord who appeared to Abraham is this:
God appeared unto Abram as three duplicates of the one image of the one God. Now, this conclusion will lead to an interesting take on who went into Sodom and Gomorrah and when.
I hope someone is interested to see what really happened there.
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Right Divider
Body part
"Made in His image" is NOT referring to a "created visible image". This is a FIGURE OF SPEECH.
I don't know why you (and so many others) have such problems understanding FIGURES OF SPEECH.
"Made in the image of God" is a metaphor. We share some of the same attributes as God.
Gobbleygook.
Yes, it's PLURAL. There are three persons in the Godhead.
God is not "full of the essence of life"... He IS LIFE.
VladtheDestroyer
Member
Hey there
I'm still pretty new here, but I've noticed how a lot of your posts, unfortunately, have this type of condescending tone to them. And I think the reason you are doing that is because you had a certain disagreement with maybe several or even most of the other people on this forum about something and so now you want to separate yourself from them by insinuating that you will be the one who "knows better than they do" and that it is somehow likely now that most people here hardly know anything at all.
I don't know if that's what happened or not or what's going on in your life. But can you do me a favor and stop acting like that? Because it's disruptive. Do you understand that? It's not good. It's not the right behavior to allow good fellowship.
Ok?
Yes, they were calling me an idiot and labeling me as a person whom they consider not even to be saved and I had barely begun to visit TOL after a long time of being too busy to come to write. I felt they were very condescending, but I've moved on from them. I think I have found some very nice posters since then who don't do what they were doing.Hey there
I'm still pretty new here, but I've noticed how a lot of your posts, unfortunately, have this type of condescending tone to them. And I think the reason you are doing that is because you had a certain disagreement with maybe several or even most of the other people on this forum about something and so now you want to separate yourself from them by insinuating that you will be the one who "knows better than they do" and that it is somehow likely now that most people here hardly know anything at all.
I don't know if that's what happened or not or what's going on in your life. But can you do me a favor and stop acting like that? Because it's disruptive. Do you understand that? It's not good. It's not the right behavior to allow good fellowship.
Ok?
No, this is just my style of writing and I think it has more to do with my excitement about these topics which I love! I do think I've discovered some things that others haven't and I'm wanting to share the new ideas. Please look at my thoughts instead of any writing style.
I'm sure not everyone is going to agree with my thoughts for they are quite different from the norm. I'm glad you converse with me. Now, if you want to soften my writing tone, try reading my post with the voice of Scarlett O'Hara for that is the way I sound when I speak. A strong Piedmont Southern lady accent. LOL
Hello ok doser. I noticed you "liked" my topic. Thank you.
I assume that means you will come to check what I have to say. Thanks again; so, I will continue with this topic.
Part ONE summary.
Abram/Abraham fell to the ground and worshiped the three heavenly men who appeared to him. None of them rejected the worship. He also only referred to them by variations of the same name. KJV uses LORD, My Lord, lords. I'm not sure if Moses used these variations to point out who did what or when or if the KJV translators did that for the same reason, but I see that no other names like Michael or Gabriel were used to denote underling angels [supernatural sentient beings] who had come with The LORD. See if this bares out through Gen. 18-19.
I think the ONE God had created ONE image for the plurality of his invisible living essence and used it. This is the premice I use to make conclusions at this time.
[Therefore, I wonder if the three of them might symbolically represent the three ways God planned to work among men: The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit. Just wondering here cause I'm excited about room for possibilities and insight...]
Now, Part TWO:
The LORD had a lot to say to Abraham as the three sat and ate a meal near Abrams tent door - so close that Sara/Sarah laughed at the idea she might have a child.
The one addressed as The LORD explained their singular mission for their arrival. Now, the three got up with the intentions to go into Sodom:
Genesis 18:
16 And the [three] men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
17-19 [The LORD, [the one identified by that name] decided to stay behind and talk privately with Abraham. He didn't want to hide his plans from him.]
20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know [IOW I will perceive it].
Now here is where interesting things began to happen. The LORD didn't seem to tell the truth. He said I will go down NOW. Did he?
Gen. 18:
22 And the [two supernatural] men turned their faces from thence, and went [right away] toward Sodom: but Abraham [still] stood yet before The LORD.
Now, if The LORD is the antecedent of the pronoun I, then why didn't he do what he said he was going to do - leave right then and go with the other 2 lords?
My thoughts: If my premise is correct: The ONE God was appearing among men, then these three - The LORD, the Lords, lords were representing the one God bearing His created personal image. All three didn't need to leave right way in order to stay on mission.
This enable One LORD to exhibit freewill and stay behind with Abraham while their mission continued.
Now, the mission was: Go into the city right away to check things out, but what did the two do instead? Would those representing God disobey?
Genesis 9:1a And there came [the] two angels [two sentient super natural males] to Sodom at evening; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom.
Consider this: Lot, who had lived with Abraham during all those years when the LORD was appearing and speaking to Abraham, may have, at least, heard a description of the appearance of the LORD from Abraham. See if there is a clue in the next verse which opens the door that Lot seemed to know enough.
Genesis 19:2b ... and Lot seeing them [the two supernatural males] bowed himself with his face toward the ground [a worship position.]
This was exactly what Abraham did when he saw all three. Worshiped them. Gen.18:2... when he saw them, he ran to meet them... and bowed himself toward the ground. None of the three rejected the worship.
I figure Lot knew enough to realize that the God of Abraham had shown up. He worshiped them and also called them My Lords, then invited them to his home for an evening meal.
Now, I must stop writing. Things I have to do - I am a woman and there is dinner to cook. The next part will be about:
I assume that means you will come to check what I have to say. Thanks again; so, I will continue with this topic.
Part ONE summary.
Abram/Abraham fell to the ground and worshiped the three heavenly men who appeared to him. None of them rejected the worship. He also only referred to them by variations of the same name. KJV uses LORD, My Lord, lords. I'm not sure if Moses used these variations to point out who did what or when or if the KJV translators did that for the same reason, but I see that no other names like Michael or Gabriel were used to denote underling angels [supernatural sentient beings] who had come with The LORD. See if this bares out through Gen. 18-19.
I think the ONE God had created ONE image for the plurality of his invisible living essence and used it. This is the premice I use to make conclusions at this time.
[Therefore, I wonder if the three of them might symbolically represent the three ways God planned to work among men: The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit. Just wondering here cause I'm excited about room for possibilities and insight...]
Now, Part TWO:
The LORD had a lot to say to Abraham as the three sat and ate a meal near Abrams tent door - so close that Sara/Sarah laughed at the idea she might have a child.
The one addressed as The LORD explained their singular mission for their arrival. Now, the three got up with the intentions to go into Sodom:
Genesis 18:
16 And the [three] men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
17-19 [The LORD, [the one identified by that name] decided to stay behind and talk privately with Abraham. He didn't want to hide his plans from him.]
20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know [IOW I will perceive it].
Now here is where interesting things began to happen. The LORD didn't seem to tell the truth. He said I will go down NOW. Did he?
Gen. 18:
22 And the [two supernatural] men turned their faces from thence, and went [right away] toward Sodom: but Abraham [still] stood yet before The LORD.
Now, if The LORD is the antecedent of the pronoun I, then why didn't he do what he said he was going to do - leave right then and go with the other 2 lords?
My thoughts: If my premise is correct: The ONE God was appearing among men, then these three - The LORD, the Lords, lords were representing the one God bearing His created personal image. All three didn't need to leave right way in order to stay on mission.
This enable One LORD to exhibit freewill and stay behind with Abraham while their mission continued.
Now, the mission was: Go into the city right away to check things out, but what did the two do instead? Would those representing God disobey?
Genesis 9:1a And there came [the] two angels [two sentient super natural males] to Sodom at evening; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom.
Consider this: Lot, who had lived with Abraham during all those years when the LORD was appearing and speaking to Abraham, may have, at least, heard a description of the appearance of the LORD from Abraham. See if there is a clue in the next verse which opens the door that Lot seemed to know enough.
Genesis 19:2b ... and Lot seeing them [the two supernatural males] bowed himself with his face toward the ground [a worship position.]
This was exactly what Abraham did when he saw all three. Worshiped them. Gen.18:2... when he saw them, he ran to meet them... and bowed himself toward the ground. None of the three rejected the worship.
I figure Lot knew enough to realize that the God of Abraham had shown up. He worshiped them and also called them My Lords, then invited them to his home for an evening meal.
Now, I must stop writing. Things I have to do - I am a woman and there is dinner to cook. The next part will be about:
- Why did they not walk around in Sodom that evening to check things out according to their mission?
- Who did?
- Anyone?
I'll try to stop using the pronoun "you." That does sound like I'm accusing "you" [the person reading] of something. I really use it to mean: Do people know or have people heard ... etc.Hey there
I'm still pretty new here, but I've noticed how a lot of your posts, unfortunately, have this type of condescending tone to them. And I think the reason you are doing that is because you had a certain disagreement with maybe several or even most of the other people on this forum about something and so now you want to separate yourself from them by insinuating that you will be the one who "knows better than they do" and that it is somehow likely now that most people here hardly know anything at all.
I don't know if that's what happened or not or what's going on in your life. But can you do me a favor and stop acting like that? Because it's disruptive. Do you understand that? It's not good. It's not the right behavior to allow good fellowship.
Ok?
Just so there may be some checking in who want to know the end here is a summary:
1.) Men in the street come to Lot's house later that night. Why? They had a special fellow with them. One who had been on the mission in the streets that night judging them and making them angry.
2.) The mob came to Lot's house because the men, who went home with Lot's were A LOT LIKE the fellow in the street with them. They wanted to kick all three out of town or worse.
3.) The angry mob was not physically blinded for they were able to leave Lot's door and wander away or even home. They were spiritually blinded. If anyone remembers this was what Jesus did to a crowd who wanted to harm him. He spiritually blinded them and walked right out of their midst.
Why did the angels only pull Lot inside the house and not "that sojourner/fellow" too? Because only Lot was the one in danger. The LORD merely walked away after he blinded the mob.
The Three supper-natural Lords continued to work separately but in unison to save Lot, his wife, and daughters.
Mahanaim: means two hosts: Now, if a reader is thinking that Jacob saw two huge crowds of some sort of heavenly angle, that is wrong.
Jacob and Laban had made a covenant between the two of them ...
Laban made a request: And Mizpah; for he said, The LORD watch between me and thee, when we are away from one from another.
The next day after the two parted only two angels [unearthly/super natural men] appeared to Jacob. Not two hordes of angelic beings ...
Jacob said: This is [Singular] God's host [two yet singular in kind] - He did not say these are hosts of angels appearing to God.
and he called the name of that place Mahanaim [PLURAL form of a word perhaps a collective noun] - meaning he had seen two of the same thing.
The Key is to know what was meant by " God's host." Catholics say the HOST is the bread destined to receive Echaristic Consecration ... likewise it can be the word applied especially to the BREAD of the sacraments versus the wine.
Now Christ said take this bread ... it represents MY BODY!
So, who where the TWO Hosts belonging to the one invisible God which Jacob saw?
My opinion: He saw God's one bodily image in duplicate unto Jacob. A sign that The LORD would be watching between the two of them, Laban and Jacob, to see that each did not break their covenant when they were apart.
ONE God worked among Abraham, Lot, and the people of Sodom and Gomorrah etc in triplicate.
ONE God worked between Laban and Jacob in duplicate.
I think the manner in which The ONE God manifested his presence in multiples was more to show how God can work among men in various ways and in individual manners.
Isn't this part of the truth of the trinity concept ... One God works in individual manners among men? Individuals men can recognized and be thankful for?
1.) Men in the street come to Lot's house later that night. Why? They had a special fellow with them. One who had been on the mission in the streets that night judging them and making them angry.
2.) The mob came to Lot's house because the men, who went home with Lot's were A LOT LIKE the fellow in the street with them. They wanted to kick all three out of town or worse.
3.) The angry mob was not physically blinded for they were able to leave Lot's door and wander away or even home. They were spiritually blinded. If anyone remembers this was what Jesus did to a crowd who wanted to harm him. He spiritually blinded them and walked right out of their midst.
Why did the angels only pull Lot inside the house and not "that sojourner/fellow" too? Because only Lot was the one in danger. The LORD merely walked away after he blinded the mob.
The Three supper-natural Lords continued to work separately but in unison to save Lot, his wife, and daughters.
- My theory that God created one image to represent his oneness but used it in multiples at times [Here three] just shows that nothing is impossible with God. It may point to the truth that God was going to be working in a triune manner as 3 identifiable individuals among men.
- It really opens the door to other insights ... like the time The LORD appeared to Jacob and Jacob named the place it happened - Mahanaim.
Mahanaim: means two hosts: Now, if a reader is thinking that Jacob saw two huge crowds of some sort of heavenly angle, that is wrong.
Jacob and Laban had made a covenant between the two of them ...
Laban made a request: And Mizpah; for he said, The LORD watch between me and thee, when we are away from one from another.
The next day after the two parted only two angels [unearthly/super natural men] appeared to Jacob. Not two hordes of angelic beings ...
Jacob said: This is [Singular] God's host [two yet singular in kind] - He did not say these are hosts of angels appearing to God.
and he called the name of that place Mahanaim [PLURAL form of a word perhaps a collective noun] - meaning he had seen two of the same thing.
The Key is to know what was meant by " God's host." Catholics say the HOST is the bread destined to receive Echaristic Consecration ... likewise it can be the word applied especially to the BREAD of the sacraments versus the wine.
Now Christ said take this bread ... it represents MY BODY!
So, who where the TWO Hosts belonging to the one invisible God which Jacob saw?
My opinion: He saw God's one bodily image in duplicate unto Jacob. A sign that The LORD would be watching between the two of them, Laban and Jacob, to see that each did not break their covenant when they were apart.
ONE God worked among Abraham, Lot, and the people of Sodom and Gomorrah etc in triplicate.
ONE God worked between Laban and Jacob in duplicate.
I think the manner in which The ONE God manifested his presence in multiples was more to show how God can work among men in various ways and in individual manners.
Isn't this part of the truth of the trinity concept ... One God works in individual manners among men? Individuals men can recognized and be thankful for?
Oh shucks. None yet. You know people accuse me of not accepting the trinity concept ... well, if anyone does, I do. The three Lords all acted individually, having freewill to make choices along their mission, and to help complete the entire mission.
Yet, one was also able to stay behind, be a friend to Abraham and explain things.
Have you ever wondered why Abraham might have wanted to save S & G since it was so full of sinful people?
My thoughts: Obviously Lot and his family and his workers who went with him, when he and Abraham separated were there. I think the king of Sodom had partnered with Abraham when he went to rescue Lot from an enemy. Abraham divided all the spoils from the battle among the kings who helped him.That would have made them allies. Right?
Anyway the people of Sodom and G were warned by The LORD God to repent and they didn't. Instead they abused our LORD outside of Lot's doorway. I wonder if people have ever wondered about one of the reasons why Jesus told his disciples something likethis; If anyone ever abuses you because of me just shake the dust off of your shoes and it will be worse for them than the people in So & G. The LORD certainly turned S & G into dust after they were warned but instead wanted to harm him/them. Just saying.
Yet, one was also able to stay behind, be a friend to Abraham and explain things.
Have you ever wondered why Abraham might have wanted to save S & G since it was so full of sinful people?
My thoughts: Obviously Lot and his family and his workers who went with him, when he and Abraham separated were there. I think the king of Sodom had partnered with Abraham when he went to rescue Lot from an enemy. Abraham divided all the spoils from the battle among the kings who helped him.That would have made them allies. Right?
Anyway the people of Sodom and G were warned by The LORD God to repent and they didn't. Instead they abused our LORD outside of Lot's doorway. I wonder if people have ever wondered about one of the reasons why Jesus told his disciples something likethis; If anyone ever abuses you because of me just shake the dust off of your shoes and it will be worse for them than the people in So & G. The LORD certainly turned S & G into dust after they were warned but instead wanted to harm him/them. Just saying.
Because you don't.
No, you don't.
This is why:
There aren't "three Lords."
There is ONE LORD.
Abraham was holding God to a higher standard.
It wasn't a matter of wanting to save Sodom or Gomorrah. It was Abraham keeping God accountable.
YES! You've got it. There is only ONE LORD/YHWH!
One God. One image representing HIM! The name given to the image/visible presence belonging to the one God is LORD. God introduced that name to Moses as HE passed by in all HIS Glory.
Yes, yes, yes. God's presence was given a name and not just I AM... but The YHWY/LORD ... My name forever.
But let's not limit God to human inabilities.
A mortal person can only have one presence and he is stuck with using it singularly. It's like our living spirit is attached to a singular body box. We don't loose that body until we die here on earth.
But God, is able ... to take his one image and use IT more than once. It is obvious he did that with manifesting the super-natural Father and the Son of flesh.
- Jesus was very clear about this: If you have SEEN ME ... you have SEEN the Father. One aspect being his physical appearance.
- King David said: My Lord is seated next to The LORD.
- The LORD appeared to Abraham but as triplets. God's presence was entering into Sodom and G as their judge and executioner. Only the ONE God has the right to judge ... and that is God himself.
- ONE God ... ONE image named LORD ... not limited as mankind to presenting himself visually as many times as he wants ... even as The supernatural Father, The fleshly Son ... and so far the Holy Spirit is invisible. Yet, My Lord sits at the right hand of his Father -The LORD.
A man dares to hold God accountable for his behavior? Well, not sure I want to go down that trail ... in Ps 82 Satan did and it did not go well.
I figure Abraham had relatives living there and other acquaintances there, even MAYBE, or an alliance with the King of Sodom who helped him rescue Lot and his family from their common enemies. Those would be my guesses why Abraham may have been concerned ... acting as an intercessor.
Addressing- two things which were mentioned above.
1.) The three super-natural men were all addressed as LORD and lords. All three accepted worship from Abraham as he bowed to the ground and worshiped.
The two, who went ahead into the city, met up with Lot at the city gate. The two lords again accepted worship as Lot bowed to the ground and worshiped before them. It seems from the contextual clues that both Abraham and Lot had seen the presence of the LORD before that day for the moment they saw them [as three or as two] they knew who they were and automatically worshiped them.
Even the angry citizens of Sodom and G noticed something in common about the three. For they manhandled THE ONE who came later and who stayed in the streets that night acting like their judge. What did they notice? He looked like the other two who had come in town earlier and went home with Lot. My predictions is that they knew the three were together because they looked alike. They knew they wanted to kick all three out of town or worse.
The TWO ANGELIC MEN inside of Lot's house pulled Lot back inside and then THEY performed a miracle. They "spiritually blinded the mob outside of Lot's door. The men could not find Lot's door anymore even though some of them were standing at the door almost breaking it down just a few minutes ago. How do I know they were not physically blinded? The mob was able to walk away - home I assume. The ONE sojourner, which the mob had captured, was able to leave the crowd without being seen as well. A lot of divine miracles were going on in those minutes... Is their any evidence that some sort of ordinary angels were able to perform miracles like these.
I know that Jesus, being God, was able to perform this same sort of miracle. A mob was manhandling him and wanting to kill him when they were suddenly spiritually blinded. This enable Jesus to walk right out of their midst without being seen. In fact the angry mob looked all around and was confused. You see, they could see ... just not what God did not want them to see.
The two inside Lot's house had something to do with performing that divine miracle.. I suggest: Because they were divine.
Think of this simple example of how the ONE God/YHWH could be seen as three lords. A person who sees double can look at ONE PERSON and see him as two identical persons. What if it was possible with that eye defect someone could look at ONE PERSON and see him as three identical persons? Well, that is sort of what I think God was able to do before the eyes of mankind. He came into his creation appearing as the ONE God but being seen as three identical super-natural men. Humans can't do this with their bodies but God surely could and even more. He could manifest his image as three and still allow each one to act as three individuals with their own free will.
For example: The three came down to roam the streets all day to see if the sins were great, but two chose to eat and spend the night at Lot's. It was the third who accomplished the mission and judged the people that night. The two had not failed or sinned for it only took one of them to accomplish the mission that day.
2.) I am not concerned about whether I am considered a trinitarian according to the definition you have in mind. I say I am one for this reason: I believe there is one God. He is invisible. He created a living visible presence / image to represent him visually within the heavens and the earth. I believe he is not limited to using that image singularly for he said "our image." One image representing the ONE God but destined for multiple personages. At the least two ... The Father LORD God and the Son Lord Jesus. I see how God can allow the Father and the Son to be seen and to act as individuals. Now the third person of the Trinity concept is the Holy Spirit which is manifested inside followers of Christ ... acting as an individual unto all born again individual believers. This is how I see the Trinity operating.
No point in your somehow trying to convince me that I am not a trinitarian. I don't think this issue is part of the salvation plan. I believe Christ was God come as the suffering savior. I believe he died, arose, ascended to the Father and accomplished his mission as The Way for our salvation. He has the gift of eternal life for believers. He has the authority to forgive people of sin and I believe he is returning to judge and inherit the nations. I believe in heaven, hell, the Lake of Fire and the fear of the Lord is wisdom. I know My Lord lives and will one day introduce me the eternal Great Potentate who dwells within unapproachable LIGHT.
SwordOfTruth
Member
Interesting that you concede earlier on that references to Elohim are a plural matter and yet here you're saying that there is only one "God". I guess sematics is involved here. There's a difference between say "Richards" and any given specific "Richard". So if someone says "I am Richard" they are referring to themsleves not to all the other Richards in the universe.
There are numerous instances in the Bible where there is talk of "other gods". For example in Psalms 82:
"God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:
"God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods." KJV
Can you really imagine God sitting there presiding over the other parts of himself as a kind of council, judging himself?!
Then we have the commandments. Thou shalt have no other god but me.
Do we really think this just means don't have any superficial "gods" like worshipping golden calfs or money? Surely not. It would be nonsensical for God to be presiding over a council of golden calves and other material effigies wouldn't it?!
The only real conclusion is that there were/are numerous entities out there and that one of them specifically wants everyone to worship him/it rather than we worship any of the others (the Elohim). For me the old chestnut "Trinity" issue is a red herring. Whether or not this specific "God" is a trinity, the fact remains that there were numerous other "gods". And this is where semantics causes problems because any use of the term "God" is so intrinsically attributed to this one specific god in today's parlance that we can't now use the term generally except when talking about other cultures.
So for example we happily talk about mythical Norse gods or Greek/Roman gods but we're happy because we generally accept those as fictional entities (oh the irony !).
If there are many "gods" out there which seems to me to be what the texts are really saying then there arises a whole issue of why one specific god wants/needs to be seen as the "daddy" and was willing to conduct so much attrocity and dictatorship to enforce that even by today's religious standards which would have you believe that if you don't comply then you're gonna be spit roasted in a lake of fire. What a nonsense.
Any entity should at least by human standards (for that is what we are and how we are built) be held to certain standards of behavior and action for otherwise we might just as well go worship someone like Hitler or Pol Pot. We shouldn't worship any entity simply based on a dictatorial threat of death or suffering. We should exercise critical thinking and assess the actions, motives and behaviours of god or any other entity. imho.
Who Are the Elohim? The Answer Might Rattle Your Theology
Who are the Elohim? Is it God? Multiple gods? Read Dr. Michael Heiser’s explanation of the origin of the Elohim from The Unseen Realm.
www.logos.com
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SwordOfTruth
Member
Regarding this story in Genesis I note the following:
In verse 1 :
"And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;"
So the Lord has at this point appeared whilst Abraham was sitting in his tent door.
Verse 2:
"And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,"
I have trouble reconciling the statement "stood by him" and Abraham subsequently having to "run to meet them". Doesn't make sense.
Surely "stood by him" can't mean standing say 20 yards from him! So surely this means that there was "the Lord" PLUS there were 3 men standing by him (the Lord). So the verse is saying first the Lord appeared and then there were 3 men standing by "the Lord" and Abraham ran and went to meet them all. So we're looking at 4 people here, the Lord and 3 men.
Verse 3:
"Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:"
Rest? Does the Lord (God) need to rest? Does he get tired all of a sudden? Surely not. The men however, yes they might need rest and food.
Verse 4:
16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
There's a clear distinction here between "the Lord" and "the men". They are not one and the same. The Lord asks the men "Shall I hide from Abraham . . ."etc.
Just my 2penneth
SwordOfTruth
Member
Yet if you do not go down that trail then you will simply bend your knee to any tyrant that demands you worship it for fear of the consequences. Now whilst that might be understandable in terms of preserving your life and avoiding suffering this in no way lessens the fact that you have surrendered to a tyrant. If you lived in Germany WW2 and Hitler demanded you submit to him and scrub his boots you might well comply for fear of the repercussions. Similarly if you lived in the Middle East you might also find similar examples of punishments for non-compliance.
Yet is this right? Do we not have a moral responsibility to demand that anyone we worship and revere should demonstrate certain behaviours and characteristics? Otherwise what's the point? You live under tyranny and is that really much better than dying anyway?
The gods may well be vastly superior and more powerful than I am but should I just submit through threat of punishment for non-compliance?
Surely that's not right. Surely there must be accountability and demonstration of moral behaviours before we consider worshipping anyone or anything. If an entity punishes someone for daring to expect such moral accountability then that entity is surely a tyrant.
So you're now retracting this?
Or are you going to continue in your contradiction?
No one is doing that.
Uh. No.
For one, your claim isn't even close to what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches.
And more importantly, it's not what the Bible teaches either. For example:
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Bible Gateway passage: John 17:5 - New King James Version
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
At best this is modalism.
At worst, unitarianism.
You seem to be misremembering the verse.
Here is the full chapter:
| The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies! Your people shall be volunteers In the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth. The Lord has sworn And will not relent, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.” The Lord is at Your right hand; He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath. He shall judge among the nations, He shall fill the places with dead bodies, He shall execute the heads of many countries. He shall drink of the brook by the wayside; Therefore He shall lift up the head. |
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm110&version=NKJV
I recommend looking at the Hebrew text. There are three persons mentioned in this chapter, David is one of them, see if you can figure out the other two.
1) It's Gomorrah. You're welcome.
2) Triplets? Where in the world did you get that idea?
You should read the entire passage again. At best, two of the three individuals mentioned are "men," angels.
And by "the entire passage, I'm talking from Genesis 18:1 all the way to 19:29.
The "three men" in Genesis 18 are the LORD and two of His angels.
Supra.
How else would you describe Genesis 18?
Because that's literally what's happening.
And it happens multiple times in scripture.
Cain does it.
Abraham does it.
Moses does it.
David does it.
That's part of being in a relationship, Ps.
Of course you don't, because I guarantee you it undermines your entire worldview at some point.
And we can't have that, can we...
Conjecture.
Don't read your beliefs into the text.
More conjecture.
Don't go beyond what the text says.
Your "guesses" shouldn't inform what the Bible says.
Supernatural, sure.
But two of them were angels, and only one of them was YHWH.
No.
Bowing was a respectful form of greeting in that day. It was showing respect to someone you hold in high regard.
Supra.
Bowing was a form of greeting, not necessarily worship.
Abraham did, yes. Lot did not.
We know this from the very contextual clues that you claim to know, but clearly do not know.
Genesis 19:1 "Now the two angels came to Sodom..."
Not "Angels of the LORD."
Just "angels."
It's possible Lot didn't know that they were angels.
Three?
Lot and the two angels?
Seems like you need to reread the story.
The two angels came to Sodom.
Lot greeted them, and brought them into his home.
The men of the city came and demanded the two angels ("men") be brought out, "that we may know them." (figure of speech for sex, and in this case, sodomy)
Lot went out and shut the door behind him, and offered the men of the city his daughters.
They didn't want his daughters.
LOT is the one they stated was "acting as a judge," and they said they would deal worse with him than with the "men" (angels).
They pressed hard against Lot, and tried to break the door down, but the angels reached out and pulled Lot back into the house, and then struck the men of the city with blindness.
That's what the text says.
Not whatever contrivance you've come up with.
There were only two angels in Sodom.
The LORD was not there. Why would He be? It's Sodom.
You're reading your beliefs into the text.
It says nothing about them "walking away" or "going home."
Scripture says (in verse 11) the angels "struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they became weary trying to find the door."
That's it.
The men of the city did not capture anyone.
Not sure how you got the idea that they did...
You're going beyond the text again.
There was one miracle (if it can even be called that), and it was the angels striking the men of the city with blindness.
That's it. There were no other miracles being performed.
Perhaps. But for now just stick with what the text says.
I mean, it literally calls them angels.
To say they were anything other than angels would be wrong.
All of this is moot, because the text explicitly calls the two "angels" and "men."
You are not a trinitarian, according to the actual definition of "trinitarian."
None of this is what the Bible teaches.
The Bible teaches that there is one God, and He is three Persons, who have each existed with each other for all of eternity.
Ps82 says: I'm right, and you can't convince me otherwise!
Hello SwordOfTruth. Thank you for joining this conversation.
My perspective:
Elohim Elohym is a collective noun. I pointed that out because I believe this about the ONE God. He is an invisible Spirit and scripture tells us HE IS LIFE. Every aspect of him is ALIVE. Whether you single out his spiritual Power, his Word, his Love, his Wisdom ... their just being part of who HE is ... means they are all equally alive in the Spirit. One example is: This is why I think it can be honestly said that The WORD is the Living Word.
Elohiym/Elohim does not particularly mean there are many Gods ... but ONE God having a multiplicity of living nature.
Oh Ps 82, probably my most favorite chapter to discuss. In it, yes, gods are mentioned but NOT Gods. The ONE God sat as Judge over those in attendance at the trial. In fact, it was the ONE God who admitted that HE personally had given angelic beings the honor of being called "g"ods. In Ps 82 after stating that the angelic beings were called gods, He then said that angels and humanity, "all of you," were called his children.
Sadly, certain angelic beings and Adam and Woman chose to reject their Father God.
Well, there you go. We know exactly who is on trial that day and are able to conclude who is standing in front of the ONE God defending himself.
Certainly not. God is not a created god/angel. He is The Creator. Angels were created as walking talking sentient beings.
Okay. I have no problem with that.
Consider this: golden calves and statues of stone or wood and how they are merely earthly materials men have used to represent some false belief in gods they concocted. They are not The Living God. This is my opinion: God who created walking talking bodies for sentient beings like angels and mankind certainly had the ability to create the same sort of thing for himself. The invisible God made his presence known visibly ... with a walking talking super-natural body. Not of flesh ... but a heavenly sort.
I've found the event at the foot of the mountain while Moses was upon the mountain conversing with the LORD ... Many of the people below felt they needed an idol to rally the Israelite masses because Moses stayed so long on the mountain ... well, Aaron acquiesced and out came the golden calf. The golden calf was to represent the God they worshiped not some other god! Yet, God was not happy that they worshiped him in this misrepresenting fashion. I had to ask why??? After all, they were worshiping him.
Well, I think I have come to two pretty good theories about why idol worship is an abomination - which are:
1.) God did not create a presence for himself that was like a dead stature after the likeness or image of any created creature in heaven or earth. For himself He created a walking talking form and associated His Spirit with it. When people saw his image ... they had seen God. Read Exodus 24:9-12. It tells you exactly what they saw. The saw The Body of Heaven in HIS clearness. They saw God and ate food in is presence and was not harmed.
2.) If man were allowed to form an image of earthly wood or stone after the exactly likeness of his presence, then it would be open to ridicule in the eyes of humanity. People burn the churches of our Lord. Can you imagine the vitriol and dishonor men would perpetrate upon any statue of the true God?
I totally agree with you on this point and add: The numerous entities presence were likely to have been Satan, his 1/3 of the rebellious angels, possibly some humans ... at least they were mentioned as if they had a role to play in the judgment to come. There was one other individual that was mentioned. He was "the God who will ARISE." That had to be a reference to The WORD, predestined to come as our Lord and Savior, who would arise to provide The Way for mankind's salvation.
The term trinity was man's way of explaining the manner by which God worked as they read scripture. I just believe what scripture says: There is ONE true Creator ... gods are what The Creator called angels. Also, the term gods was usurped by humanity to described deities they concocted from their own imaginations. Something to have people rally around in a controlled manner.
I think we agree on this point as well.
Now, you know my thoughts on there being only ONE Creator/God. I don't see Him as being a cruel dictator with unreasonable expectations as he judges. The main point I would make is: Before God ever created mankind he had already decided to come into our mess of imperfection just to suffer and die physically in order to pay the price for our salvation. Salvation for all who would willing to be saved. The creator came to save all and if any are not saved it is because they chose rebellion.
I guess he became know as The Father because in Ps 82 and elsewhere He first called us his children.
Any entity should at least by human standards (for that is what we are and how we are built) be held to certain standards of behavior and action for otherwise we might just as well go worship someone like Hitler or Pol Pot. We shouldn't worship any entity simply based on a dictatorial threat of death or suffering. We should exercise critical thinking and assess the actions, motives and behaviours of god or any other entity. imho.
Who Are the Elohim? The Answer Might Rattle Your Theology
Who are the Elohim? Is it God? Multiple gods? Read Dr. Michael Heiser’s explanation of the origin of the Elohim from The Unseen Realm.
Well, I think we agree on this point also. I don't worship God and My Lord because I fear him harming me. I reasoned and life taught me that I was helpless like an orphan without a Father in this tough world. I've seen how the hearts of mankind are bent on evil continually. What a cruel and judgemental people we are. I reasoned I needed the gift of the Holy Spirit brought by my Savior or there is no hope for me/mankind.
I enjoyed responding to your post for you are a seeker. God promises - Proverbs 8:17 Seek Me ... early ... you shall find me. Pa 9:10 is another place where the promise is made.
I have a busy life ... and though I love writing about my faith ... I will come and go here on TOL. If I fail to reply to one of your posts it is not because I'm trying to ignore you. I appreciate our interest in the topic.
I will simply say:So you're now retracting this?
Or are you going to continue in your contradiction?
No one is doing that.
Uh. No.
For one, your claim isn't even close to what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches.
And more importantly, it's not what the Bible teaches either. For example:
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Bible Gateway passage: John 17:5 - New King James Version
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.www.biblegateway.com
At best this is modalism.
At worst, unitarianism.
You seem to be misremembering the verse.
Here is the full chapter:
The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!
Your people shall be volunteers
In the day of Your power;
In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning,
You have the dew of Your youth.
The Lord has sworn
And will not relent,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall execute the heads of many countries.
He shall drink of the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He shall lift up the head.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm110&version=NKJV
I recommend looking at the Hebrew text. There are three persons mentioned in this chapter, David is one of them, see if you can figure out the other two.
1) It's Gomorrah. You're welcome.
2) Triplets? Where in the world did you get that idea?
You should read the entire passage again. At best, two of the three individuals mentioned are "men," angels.
And by "the entire passage, I'm talking from Genesis 18:1 all the way to 19:29.
The "three men" in Genesis 18 are the LORD and two of His angels.
Supra.
How else would you describe Genesis 18?
Because that's literally what's happening.
And it happens multiple times in scripture.
Cain does it.
Abraham does it.
Moses does it.
David does it.
That's part of being in a relationship, Ps.
Of course you don't, because I guarantee you it undermines your entire worldview at some point.
And we can't have that, can we...
Conjecture.
Don't read your beliefs into the text.
More conjecture.
Don't go beyond what the text says.
Your "guesses" shouldn't inform what the Bible says.
Supernatural, sure.
But two of them were angels, and only one of them was YHWH.
No.
Bowing was a respectful form of greeting in that day. It was showing respect to someone you hold in high regard.
Supra.
Bowing was a form of greeting, not necessarily worship.
Abraham did, yes. Lot did not.
We know this from the very contextual clues that you claim to know, but clearly do not know.
Genesis 19:1 "Now the two angels came to Sodom..."
Not "Angels of the LORD."
Just "angels."
It's possible Lot didn't know that they were angels.
Three?
Lot and the two angels?
Seems like you need to reread the story.
The two angels came to Sodom.
Lot greeted them, and brought them into his home.
The men of the city came and demanded the two angels ("men") be brought out, "that we may know them." (figure of speech for sex, and in this case, sodomy)
Lot went out and shut the door behind him, and offered the men of the city his daughters.
They didn't want his daughters.
LOT is the one they stated was "acting as a judge," and they said they would deal worse with him than with the "men" (angels).
They pressed hard against Lot, and tried to break the door down, but the angels reached out and pulled Lot back into the house, and then struck the men of the city with blindness.
That's what the text says.
Not whatever contrivance you've come up with.
There were only two angels in Sodom.
The LORD was not there. Why would He be? It's Sodom.
You're reading your beliefs into the text.
It says nothing about them "walking away" or "going home."
Scripture says (in verse 11) the angels "struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they became weary trying to find the door."
That's it.
The men of the city did not capture anyone.
Not sure how you got the idea that they did...
You're going beyond the text again.
There was one miracle (if it can even be called that), and it was the angels striking the men of the city with blindness.
That's it. There were no other miracles being performed.
Perhaps. But for now just stick with what the text says.
I mean, it literally calls them angels.
To say they were anything other than angels would be wrong.
All of this is moot, because the text explicitly calls the two "angels" and "men."
You are not a trinitarian, according to the actual definition of "trinitarian."
None of this is what the Bible teaches.
The Bible teaches that there is one God, and He is three Persons, who have each existed with each other for all of eternity.
Ps82 says: I'm right, and you can't convince me otherwise!
You have not yet grasped the totality of what I believe about The One Spiritual God with his multiplicity of living essence/character. Nor understood how he created his ONE image to represent his being the ONE God ... but in addition had/has the ability to use that one image multiple times.
One example of this ability is: First, as the Father seen with his BODY OF HEAVEN in HIS clearness ... who was seen by 74 men who ate food in his presence and were not harmed. He gave a name to his visible presence: The LORD/YHWH - The LORD God.
Second, the ONE God was able to send His Word [who was with God and WAS GOD] into the world bearing his express ONE image in the form of flesh. People have spoken of him as Emmanuel, Jesus, Messiah and My Lord and Savior.
The Creator is not chained to the same inabilities to which mankind has been subjected. Shockingly, He can use his image multiple times in multiple ways! He used it to appear as the Father out right in visions, dreams, and outright in safe manners. And again as the Son of mortal flesh. He only uses his ONE image ... for his purposes.
Now, at this time I believe the only way we can say that the Holy Spirit has appeared is to say that: Because He is in us we are his bodily form on Earth at this time. I know it is just a wish of mine, but I hope one day we might see Him appear along with the Father and the Son ... but I don't think scripture bears that out. Yet, I still feel he is an individual, whether we see Him or not, of the known God Head. Perhaps he is in us as the living Power of God.
All of God is LIFE ... so all of his essence/character is alive. Just like The WORD of God is alive ... so is The Power of God.