ECT An honest Calvinist hymn

[musterion]

Does God love me? I don't know
'cuz He didn't tell me so,
elected ones and reprobates:
a few He loves but most He hates.

Believe the Gospel, trust in Christ:
the Bible says that this is right
but only if you're chosen to;
else His blood's not shed for you.

Calvin said God's full glory
is manifest in secretly
damning most and sparing few
do you know which one is you?

No, you don't, neither do I:
Eternal counsels we can't spy.
So work and sweat, confess and pray
that you'll be saved upon that Day.​

 

[Truster]

A Calvinistic Methodist Hymn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK9-bJlSt6c

 

[Nang]

Does God love me? I don't know
'cuz He didn't tell me so,
elected ones and reprobates:
a few He loves but most He hates.

Believe the Gospel, trust in Christ:
the Bible says that this is right
but only if you're chosen to;
else His blood's not shed for you.

Calvin said God's full glory
is manifest in secretly
damning most and sparing few
do you know which one is you?

No, you don't, neither do I:
Eternal counsels we can't spy.
So work and sweat, confess and pray
that you'll be saved upon that Day.​

This IS juvenile, Musterion. It matches your avatar.

 

[musterion]

Even little children can speak truth to the spiritually diseased elderly.

 

[Lon]

:nono: No Calvinist would ever say most of this. It is against Perseverance of the Saints and having full-assurance that is a Calvinist hallmark. Therefore, it can't be Calvinistic.

Is it what others 'think' Calvinists believe? Sure, but it isn't a mature view of what we believe when it isn't true. Calvinism isn't an easy system to grasp AND most of us have/had a knee-jerk reaction not to try and grasp it. I understand all of this/am trying to give a cursory thread a bit of depth with the presented opportunity to do so.

In Him

-Lon

 

[revpete]

It's quite sad really; it would be almost funny if the subject matter were not as deadly serious as it is!

 

[musterion]

:nono: No Calvinist would ever say most of this.

SAY it, or even THINK it? Probably not, at least not in those terms. However...

Stanza 1 is in reference to Calvin's teaching on reprobation and election and the fact that, given his assumptions about "temporal grace" and spurious faith, none can say with 100% certainty he or she is saved, even if they've believed the Gospel:

Therefore, as we dread shipwreck, we must avoid this rock, which is fatal to everyone who strikes upon it.... A fatal abyss engulfs those who, to be assured of their election, pry into the eternal counsel of God without the word.

Which said exactly nothing, since the Word says nothing about which individuals it pleased God to elect in Christ and which He did not. And Calvin knew it.

Stanza 2: Limited Atonement.

Stanza 3 and 4 cover much the same ground as stanza 1, specific to Calvin's claim that it is presumption to say one is elect, or even seek to ascertain it. Wrap-up is the basic purpose and methods of Lordship Salvation: to help one ascertain (as much as it is possible, which is not 100%) that he/she is elect.

 

[musterion]

It's quite sad really; it would be almost funny if the subject matter were not as deadly serious as it is!

I agree. Calvinism is the greatest doctrinal tragedy ever.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

It is easy to sit in the sunshine
And talk to the man in the shade;
It is easy to float in a well-trimmed boat,
And point out the places to wade.

But once we pass into the shadows,
We murmur and fret and frown,
And, our length from the bank, we shout for a plank,
Or throw up our hands and go down.

It is easy to sit in your carriage,
And counsel the man on foot,
But get down and walk, and you'll change your talk,
As you feel the peg in your boot.

It is easy to tell the toiler
How best he can carry his pack,
But no one can rate a burden's weight
Until it has been on his back.

The up-curled mouth of pleasure,
Can prate of sorrow's worth,
But give it a sip, and a wryer lip,
Was never made on earth.

- Ella Wheeler Wilcox
1896

Persons constructing straw men of the Calvinist's views by claiming we operate from the same presuppositions they do and therefore believe about our beliefs what they believe about our beliefs leaves no hope for honest discussion.

If persons would avail themselves of a scripturally accurate summary of our beliefs, e.g., WCF, with a nice exposition of the same here, much clarity would ensue. Unfortunately some prefer to just parrot others in discussion forums and not dig deeper.

AMR

 

[Lon]

I agree. Calvinism is the greatest doctrinal tragedy ever.

...it is presumption to say one is elect, or even seek to ascertain it. Wrap-up is the basic purpose and methods of Lordship Salvation: to help one ascertain (as much as it is possible, which is not 100%) that he/she is elect.

You keep using that "Calvinist" word.

I'm not sure it means what you think it means, or maybe I'm not a Calvinist like I thought I was :think:

Persons constructing straw men of the Calvinist's views by claiming we operate from the same presuppositions they do and therefore believe about our beliefs what they believe about our beliefs leaves no hope for honest discussion.
AMR

 

[Dialogos]

How about Real Calvinist hymns?

Amazing Grace.

Lets see you make fun of that one...

 

[miscellaneous]

:nono: No Calvinist would ever say most of this. It is against Perseverance of the Saints and having full-assurance that is a Calvinist hallmark. Therefore, it can't be Calvinistic. ...
... In Him
-Lon

So is there a tell tale difference, a proof, distinguishing a person who is truly elect and one who is deceived?

 

[patrick jane]

Does God love me? I don't know
'cuz He didn't tell me so,
elected ones and reprobates:
a few He loves but most He hates.

Believe the Gospel, trust in Christ:
the Bible says that this is right
but only if you're chosen to;
else His blood's not shed for you.

Calvin said God's full glory
is manifest in secretly
damning most and sparing few
do you know which one is you?

No, you don't, neither do I:
Eternal counsels we can't spy.
So work and sweat, confess and pray
that you'll be saved upon that Day.​

is that it, in a broad sense ? i will look up calvinsim later, but for now, is that their doctrine ? - b57 and nanja ? - Calvin ? - atrol:

 

[patrick jane]

just how influential is this Calvin fella ? - atrol:

 

[Christian Liberty]

is that it, in a broad sense ? i will look up calvinsim later, but for now, is that their doctrine ? - b57 and nanja ? - Calvin ? - atrol:

I don't know Nanja as well, but B57 is a hyper-calvinist, not a standard calvinist. I wouldn't qualify Nang as hyper but she holds to a more extreme form of Calvinism (not sure if this is your preferred word, Nang, feel free to ask me to replace it with something that you think fits better and I will) than most Calvinists. I can't speak for B57, but I can say that any Calvinist (as opposed to some hyper-calvinists) believes that any man who believes the gospel will be saved... the question is why men who believe actually believe, whether because they chose to (as the Arminians believe) or whether God chose them to (as the Calvinists believe.)

The Calvinist view is Biblical per Romans 8, Romans 9, John 6, John 10, Ephesians 1:3-5, 1 Corinthians 1.

 

[Lon]

So is there a tell tale difference, a proof, distinguishing a person who is truly elect and one who is deceived?

1 John 5:11-15 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.
John 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

John says here, if God is answering your prayers, it is a sign you are His (probably a no-brainer, but he, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, was moved to remind us 2 Peter 1:21). Jesus also reminded us that he/she who is not against us, is for us Luke 9:50 Matthew 12:30 and Mark 9:40

I don't really see the Calvinism/Arminian debate as starkly as a few other on TOL and other places, do. In general, we are trying to put together the scriptures in the best way we see them fitting. I think (at least this is my personal philosophy and tack) that we should be talking a lot more than fighting because we 'need' to compare notes as believers. We'll likely continue separating into denominations for awhile BUT I believe a lot of this discussion would be better in-house where we can love and challenge one another to love Him more, in thought and deed. I understand the difference, but I've seen it work well at seminary and in a few churches. Emphasis on important things is key, I think.

God wants us to know: Romans 10:9-13 Acts 2:21 Joel 2:32 Acts 16:30-31

I believe I've been chosen and adopted; might I be mistaken?

If I'm not "one that God Loved", isn't it possible that God can cause me to be deceived so that I believe I am "Loved" and "Chosen in Christ", when indeed I'm not?

What is the proof that I'm not deceived?

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans is an incredibly encouraging book for Christians wanting assurance). It was important to John to tell us what he told us, under the leading of the Holy Spirit, so that we might know Christ and in knowing Him, have life in His name. God wants us to be assured. There a few assurances that help when we are in doubt. Ask if you want more. Start an "Assurance of Salvation" thread if such is needed. I'm not sure if you wanted this for yourself, or from just a Calvinist's perspective, but I wanted to be sure I was covering both bases. In Christ,

His blessings.

-Lon

 

[andyc]

:nono: No Calvinist would ever say most of this. It is against Perseverance of the Saints and having full-assurance that is a Calvinist hallmark. Therefore, it can't be Calvinistic.

Is it what others 'think' Calvinists believe? Sure, but it isn't a mature view of what we believe when it isn't true. Calvinism isn't an easy system to grasp AND most of us have/had a knee-jerk reaction not to try and grasp it. I understand all of this/am trying to give a cursory thread a bit of depth with the presented opportunity to do so.

In Him

-Lon

Yes
Calvinism is very difficult to grasp, and because it requires people to saturate themselves in deep theological study and thought in order to systematically understand the reasons behind each point, it causes some to mock the more distasteful conclusions that emerge, without truly understanding the basis of why they are acknowledged. I am against the Calvinist interpretation of the sovereignty of God, but to try and mentally appreciate it, it is essential to restrain the natural mind from immediately objecting to the surface harshness of God regarding the principles leading to the conclusion that there is a limited atonement.

As for musterion's OP, he's convinced himself that a Calvinist cannot have a personal assurance of Salvation, which is the very thing that sparked the reformation.
I actually think that MADists are closet Calvinists, because when you examine their doctrine closely, what do you find? TULIP.
The problem is that they're not willing to connect the dots leading to the dreaded limited atonement conclusion.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I agree. Calvinism is the greatest doctrinal tragedy ever.

I agree!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I actually think that MADists are closet Calvinists

Absolutely absurd conclusion! I would expect nothing less!

 

[patrick jane]

:nono: No Calvinist would ever say most of this. It is against Perseverance of the Saints and having full-assurance that is a Calvinist hallmark. Therefore, it can't be Calvinistic.

Is it what others 'think' Calvinists believe? Sure, but it isn't a mature view of what we believe when it isn't true. Calvinism isn't an easy system to grasp AND most of us have/had a knee-jerk reaction not to try and grasp it. I understand all of this/am trying to give a cursory thread a bit of depth with the presented opportunity to do so.

In Him

-Lon

system