ECT "Along With Persecution": how the kingdom came in Acts 1-2

I

Interplanner

Well-known member
The D'ist and 2P2P position is often that: well, the apostles were still asking about when the kingdom (as they knew it) would happen. We are told to see the proof of that in Acts 1.

But it seems to me that the answer Christ gave is not completely developed by 2P2Ps. They sort of 'take what they want' (a vague, silent validation that there is a restoration coming) but they miss that the term 'power' there is the power of the kingdom he had been talking about. It was a power from God that would get done what God wanted, not something they would 'own' themselves (compare Simon in Acts 7 who wanted to buy it).

That is the nature of the kingdom all through. It was going to be a 'mighty act of God' (Acts 2) but it was not going to be possessed by any human agency. In fact, those who followed Christ's kingdom would be persecuted. Those who would go on a mission with Christ and for his gospel would gain all kinds of friends, family and places, but all 'along with persecution.' Mk 10:29+

That is such a totally different vision from a restored Davidic theocracy, that there is no point in comparing. It is exactly the direction Acts goes. The Christian community is all kinds of friends and connections (see Rom 16) but is never a 'state' but has lots of 'power' (God's power in a message that 'turns the world upside down' Acts 26) and there is a lot of persecution, 2 Cor 12.

I don't know how we could miss it, but 2P2P wants completely different results.

Finally, this power in Acts 1 matches the description of what happened in the 1st generation given by Paul in Rom 16. It is the term 'the command' of God in 16:26. That command or order or decree is that the gospel and Christ as embedded in the OT scriptures was now disclosed through those same scriptures so that all nations would believe and obey God. It is exactly the same power as mentioned in Acts. It is the official reason why the OT is to be read Christocentrically, not as was done in Judaism and in 2P2P.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
The D'ist and 2P2P position is often that: well, the apostles were still asking about when the kingdom (as they knew it) would happen. We are told to see the proof of that in Acts 1.

But it seems to me that the answer Christ gave is not completely developed by 2P2Ps. They sort of 'take what they want' (a vague, silent validation that there is a restoration coming) but they miss that the term 'power' there is the power of the kingdom he had been talking about. It was a power from God that would get done what God wanted, not something they would 'own' themselves (compare Simon in Acts 7 who wanted to buy it).

That is the nature of the kingdom all through.
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If the "power" of which you speak is in regard to a supposed kingdom that came at Acts 2 then why would the Lord Jesus make it plain that the kingdom would not even be near at hand until He returns to the earth?:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

The "power" of which you speak is obviously in regard to the ability to speak in different languages.
 
L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
If the "power" of which you speak is in regard to a supposed kingdom that came at Acts 2 then why would the Lord Jesus make it plain that the kingdom would not even be near at hand until He returns to the earth?:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

The "power" of which you speak is obviously in regard to the ability to speak in different languages.
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The word power is an administrative word.

As for the last verse of Lk 21 that you quoted, it wraps around many previous ones, not just the return in glory. It includes the details of the destruction of Jerusalem , of the time of all punishment written against Israel to be executed. The apostles (esp Paul who was transcribed by Luke) did not think the 2nd coming was very far after the DofJ. "These things" refers to ALL things mentioned in the declaration Christ made there.
 
marhig

marhig

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
If the "power" of which you speak is in regard to a supposed kingdom that came at Acts 2 then why would the Lord Jesus make it plain that the kingdom would not even be near at hand until He returns to the earth?:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

The "power" of which you speak is obviously in regard to the ability to speak in different languages.
Click to expand...

The power comes with the holy spirit, and Christ has already returned he is within the hearts of those truly born of God.

The holy spirit is of the kingdom of God, so if the holy spirit is within our hearts, then the kingdom of God is within us.

And the language of love is understood in every language.
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
The word power is an administrative word.

As for the last verse of Lk 21 that you quoted, it wraps around many previous ones, not just the return in glory. It includes the details of the destruction of Jerusalem , of the time of all punishment written against Israel to be executed. The apostles (esp Paul who was transcribed by Luke) did not think the 2nd coming was very far after the DofJ. "These things" refers to ALL things mentioned in the declaration Christ made there.
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When is the LORD going to come in wrath to defend Jerusalem from it's enemies, as the prophets stated over and over again? :idunno:
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
SaulToPaul said:
When is the LORD going to come in wrath to defend Jerusalem from it's enemies, as the prophets stated over and over again? :idunno:
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This is where you are continually off by one epoch or timeframe. That's the end of the 'long reign' in Rev 21. All believers everywhere (the city of God) are oppressed but he slays them in a moment and then there is the NHNE.

Right where you suppose there is a battle for Jerusalem in the Rev, there is nothing.

And then your prophets say half the women are raped and 1/3 of all people perish. Oh, great.
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
This is where you are continually off by one epoch or timeframe. That's the end of the 'long reign' in Rev 21. All believers everywhere (the city of God) are oppressed but he slays them in a moment and then there is the NHNE.

Right where you suppose there is a battle for Jerusalem in the Rev, there is nothing.

And then your prophets say half the women are raped and 1/3 of all people perish. Oh, great.
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You're filled with unbelief.
Are you sure you've trusted the LORD to save you?
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
SaulToPaul said:
You're filled with unbelief.
Are you sure you've trusted the LORD to save you?
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There is no connection at all between a mistaken eschatology and relying on Christ's righteousness for justification from my debt of sins. There is no 'automatic' path that leads from justification to 2P2P. You simply bludgeon the NT every minute with 2P2P, which is muck and fraud. It is not 'belief.' There is nothing in the NT that associates your 2P2P with 'belief.' If you think Mt 23 or Rom 11 does, you have not listened to the grammar or tenses or context there.

That's the way of 2P2P. It is not historical-grammatical exegesis. It is glom pushed on the NT every minute.
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
There is no connection at all between a mistaken eschatology and relying on Christ's righteousness for justification from my debt of sins. There is no 'automatic' path that leads from justification to 2P2P. You simply bludgeon the NT every minute with 2P2P, which is muck and fraud. It is not 'belief.' There is nothing in the NT that associates your 2P2P with 'belief.' If you think Mt 23 or Rom 11 does, you have not listened to the grammar or tenses or context there.

That's the way of 2P2P. It is not historical-grammatical exegesis. It is glom pushed on the NT every minute.
Click to expand...

How were you saved?
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
I believed Christ justified me from my debt of sin. It does not matter when, how, whom with, whom heard by, this message. It is the eternal Gospel like the eternal covenant, planned before creation.

You think the 'answer' is the experience. You are flat wrong.
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
I believed Christ justified me from my debt of sin. It does not matter when, how, whom with, whom heard by, this message. It is the eternal Gospel like the eternal covenant, planned before creation.

You think the 'answer' is the experience. You are flat wrong.
Click to expand...

Made up terms.
Did you trust the LORD to save you?
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
marhig said:
The power comes with the holy spirit, and Christ has already returned he is within the hearts of those truly born of God.

The holy spirit is of the kingdom of God, so if the holy spirit is within our hearts, then the kingdom of God is within us.

And the language of love is understood in every language.
Click to expand...


thats good marhig but Acts and Ephesians are more direct about the reign than that.
 
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