Abortion and infanticide in the Bible

[Kdall]

So many here are adamantly opposed to abortion in any situation. For those of you who share this view, please explain this to me:

In the OT, God commands the Israelites to murder all the "wicked" who they conquer. That includes babies. Already born, out-of-the-womb babies.

If you oppose terminating a life inside the womb because of the Bible, how can you be okay with God slaughtering innocent children?

Deuteronomy 2:33-34
33 “The Lord our God delivered him over to us, and we defeated him with his sons and all his people.
34 “So we captured all his cities at that time and utterly destroyed the men, women and children of every city. We left no survivor.

 

[Buzzword]

Great point to bring to the table!

I've dealt with similar concerns in a variety of different discussions, especially when trying to reconcile a just and loving Christian God with the apparently hateful, bigoted, and barbaric deity worshiped by the ancient Hebrews.

Since I am not a biblical literalist, I have no problem with the explanation that the events described in the conquest of Canaan were NOT commanded by the God I worship, but were simply standard operating procedure for an invading army not interested in taking prisoners or enslaving the local population.

It was also standard practice for Hebrews who wrote down accounts of the conquest after the fact to give credit to God for their victory and everything involved with it.
Every ancient culture believed that their deity(s) of choice decided the outcome of war, so a soldier killing "women, children, and infants" (1 Samuel 15:3) could justify the atrocity with something akin to "Well God commanded it! And if we hadn't followed His command, we would have lost the battle!"

...which is why I take any and all sermons on 21st century morality taken from the OT with a heaping helping of salt.


Just some food for thought or fuel for discussion.
I totally support unlimited availability of abortions for any woman who wants or needs it paid for by taxes in a single-payer national healthcare system, so I may not be in your target audience.

 

[Kdall]

Great point to bring to the table!

I've dealt with similar concerns in a variety of different discussions, especially when trying to reconcile a just and loving Christian God with the apparently hateful, bigoted, and barbaric deity worshiped by the ancient Hebrews.

Since I am not a biblical literalist, I have no problem with the explanation that the events described in the conquest of Canaan were NOT commanded by the God I worship, but were simply standard operating procedure for an invading army not interested in taking prisoners or enslaving the local population.

It was also standard practice for Hebrews who wrote down accounts of the conquest after the fact to give credit to God for their victory and everything involved with it.
Every ancient culture believed that their deity(s) of choice decided the outcome of war, so a soldier killing "women, children, and infants" (1 Samuel 15:3) could justify the atrocity with something akin to "Well God commanded it! And if we hadn't followed His command, we would have lost the battle!"

...which is why I take any and all sermons on 21st century morality taken from the OT with a heaping helping of salt.


Just some food for thought or fuel for discussion.
I totally support unlimited availability of abortions for any woman who wants or needs it paid for by taxes in a single-payer national healthcare system, so I may not be in your target audience.

That's a valid way of thinking about it. My personal opinion is that God looks at the world as it is in any particular era, and makes laws and decrees that are acceptable and just in that era. They may not be accepted or considered just after several centuries of hindsight, but at the time they are. God's rules appear to evolve according to the times. The new ones that Jesus espoused are significantly more peaceful and permissive

 

[patrick jane]

So many here are adamantly opposed to abortion in any situation. For those of you who share this view, please explain this to me:

In the OT, God commands the Israelites to murder all the "wicked" who they conquer. That includes babies. Already born, out-of-the-womb babies.

If you oppose terminating a life inside the womb because of the Bible, how can you be okay with God slaughtering innocent children?

Deuteronomy 2:33-34
33 “The Lord our God delivered him over to us, and we defeated him with his sons and all his people.
34 “So we captured all his cities at that time and utterly destroyed the men, women and children of every city. We left no survivor.

it's called war - completely different than abortion. God destroys wicked peoples, check and see -

warfare is real, God understands -

wicked, evil, barbarous people are punished and destroyed to fulfill God'd Will -


evil is vanquished wherever it's found by the righteous believers in The Lord Our God -

 

[Kdall]

it's called war - completely different than abortion. God destroys wicked peoples, check and see -

warfare is real, God understands -

Babies aren't evil. That's a horrible argument. The New Black Panther Party wants to kill all white babies because they have similar views to you. Is that okay?

The Israelites could've simply raised the babies themselves and.....voila!.....they would be raised as Israelites and harbor no ill will towards them. They might never even know they weren't born Israelites.

wicked, evil, barbarous people are punished and destroyed to fulfill God'd Will -


evil is vanquished wherever it's found by the righteous believers in The Lord Our God -

You know that's basically ISIS's slogan, right?

 

[Jose Fly]

In my experiences discussing this with conservative Christians, whether an act is moral or immoral isn't a function of the act itself. For example, is genocide immoral? I think most would agree that it is. However, to conservative Christians the answer is "It depends". The reason being that in the OT, God regularly commands the Israelites to commit genocide. And I've seen countless conservative Christians attempt to justify those acts, usually via something like "Who are you to question God".

So the conclusion here is that for conservative Christians, the immorality or morality of an action is based on whether or not God approves of it in that particular instance.

So yes, to conservative Christians killing babies and the unborn can be a moral act....if God commands it.

 

[Kdall]

In my experiences discussing this with conservative Christians, whether an act is moral or immoral isn't a function of the act itself. For example, is genocide immoral? I think most would agree that it is. However, to conservative Christians the answer is "It depends". The reason being that in the OT, God regularly commands the Israelites to commit genocide. And I've seen countless conservative Christians attempt to justify those acts, usually via something like "Who are you to question God".

So the conclusion here is that for conservative Christians, the immorality or morality of an action is based on whether or not God approves of it in that particular instance.

So yes, to conservative Christians killing babies and the unborn can be a moral act....if God commands it.

1. So what would happen if a woman claimed to have a vision from God telling her to go get an abortion?

2. And what if she not just claimed she was told to get an abortion, but that her child would become the anti-christ?

 

[patrick jane]

Babies aren't evil. That's a horrible argument. The New Black Panther Party wants to kill all white babies because they have similar views to you. Is that okay?

The Israelites could've simply raised the babies themselves and.....voila!.....they would be raised as Israelites and harbor no ill will towards them. They might never even know they weren't born Israelites.

You know that's basically ISIS's slogan, right?

you are making up scenarios that are extreme to bolster your statements. no it's not ok, however, God's Will is done in the long run. ISIS will be vanquished as well. all hate groups and evil perpetrators will be vanquished. God tells us so through Jesus Christ.

things don't make sense to you, because of a few Biblical wars that His CHOSEN PEOPLE by His Will, had to fight.

there is a difference between insane inflammatory agendas as you submitted, and righteous warfare. people generally aren't stupid, we can tell the difference between right and wrong.

so you bring up wars from thousands of years ago ? and then more recent evil travesties in this nation and the world. class act - atrol:

 

[WizardofOz]

I am opposed to abortion. My being pro-life really has nothing to do with any particular bible verse(s).

 

[Kdall]

you are making up scenarios that are extreme to bolster your statements. no it's not ok, however, God's Will is done in the long run. ISIS will be vanquished as well. all hate groups and evil perpetrators will be vanquished. God tells us so through Jesus Christ.

things don't make sense to you, because of a few Biblical wars that His CHOSEN PEOPLE by His Will, had to fight.

there is a difference between insane inflammatory agendas as you submitted, and righteous warfare. people generally aren't stupid, we can tell the difference between right and wrong.

so you bring up wars from thousands of years ago ? and then more recent evil travesties in this nation and the world. class act - atrol:

How is raising another person's baby an extreme alternative to killing them? Smh

I presented a case that God no longer has a need for such barbarism, as he is just and changes what is acceptable based on the times.

If you are telling me that killing babies is ever just, then you're wrong. Just plain wrong. Maybe in the world of yesteryear it could be stomached, but not today.

How are you certain that Islam isn't right, and that we are ones going against God? Have you ever considered that the righteous wrath of God that you love so much could be brought down upon you?

 

[Buzzword]

In my experiences discussing this with conservative Christians, whether an act is moral or immoral isn't a function of the act itself. For example, is genocide immoral? I think most would agree that it is. However, to conservative Christians the answer is "It depends". The reason being that in the OT, God regularly commands the Israelites to commit genocide. And I've seen countless conservative Christians attempt to justify those acts, usually via something like "Who are you to question God".

So the conclusion here is that for conservative Christians, the immorality or morality of an action is based on whether or not God approves of it in that particular instance.

So yes, to conservative Christians killing babies and the unborn can be a moral act....if God commands it.

Well said.

Yet these are supposedly the proponents of "absolute" morality.

 

[Angel4Truth]

God doesn't murder.

 

[Buzzword]

God doesn't murder.

A wild oversimplification appeared.


So, are you just going to leave it at that completely useless statement, or are you going to actually answer Kdall's questions?

If we define "murder" as "killing a person especially with malice aforethought," and take it as given that God has literally struck people down, AND take it as given that He is "jealous" (Exodus 20:5), "angry" (Numbers 22:22), and takes "vengeance" (Deuteronomy 32:35), AND we see jealousy, anger, and desire for revenge motivating murder across the centuries, AND we are made in God's image...


You see why oversimplification doesn't get us anywhere?

So what is your answer to Kdall's question?

If [developing embryo] = [infant],

And [removing developing embryo] = [murdering an infant],

And [murdering an infant] = [sin] or [morally wrong],

Then how do YOU justify the apparent command from God to slaughter out-of-womb-breathing-outside-air children and infants?

 

[Angel4Truth]

A wild oversimplification appeared.


So, are you just going to leave it at that completely useless statement, or are you going to actually answer Kdall's questions?

If we define "murder" as "killing a person especially with malice aforethought," and take it as given that God has literally struck people down, AND take it as given that He is "jealous" (Exodus 20:5), "angry" (Numbers 22:22), and takes "vengeance" (Deuteronomy 32:35), AND we see jealousy, anger, and desire for revenge motivating murder across the centuries, AND we are made in God's image...


You see why oversimplification doesn't get us anywhere?

So what is your answer to Kdall's question?

If [developing embryo] = [infant],

And [removing developing embryo] = [murdering an infant],

And [murdering an infant] = [sin] or [morally wrong],

Then how do YOU justify the apparent command from God to slaughter out-of-womb-breathing-outside-air children and infants?

Your definition is wrong, God doesn't murder. God has no malice of forethought.

Why do you worship a God who murders if that is what you think?

 

[Angel4Truth]

Wow, i am amazed that rather than be wrong, a couple people calling themselves Christian, makes God a sinner.

 

[patrick jane]

How is raising another person's baby an extreme alternative to killing them? Smh

I presented a case that God no longer has a need for such barbarism, as he is just and changes what is acceptable based on the times.

If you are telling me that killing babies is ever just, then you're wrong. Just plain wrong. Maybe in the world of yesteryear it could be stomached, but not today.

How are you certain that Islam isn't right, and that we are ones going against God? Have you ever considered that the righteous wrath of God that you love so much could be brought down upon you?

God will show who is right and wrong -

Hosea 14:9 KJV - Leviticus 10:10 KJV - Job 6:30 KJV -

extremism, terrorism and evil will be eliminated in God's timing -
i underlined your question. yes i have - it's not up to me, if God's wrath comes upon me, Amen. it's not about Islam being right. ISIS is NOT. and i believe this -

John 14:6 KJV and John 6:44 KJV -

 

[Kdall 2.0]

God will show who is right and wrong -

Hosea 14:9 KJV - Leviticus 10:10 KJV - Job 6:30 KJV -

extremism, terrorism and evil will be eliminated in God's timing -
i underlined your question. yes i have - it's not up to me, if God's wrath comes upon me, Amen. it's not about Islam being right. ISIS is NOT. and i believe this -

John 14:6 KJV and John 6:44 KJV -

Fair enough. At least you're consistent

 

[Kdall 2.0]

Your definition is wrong, God doesn't murder. God has no malice of forethought.

Why do you worship a God who murders if that is what you think?

So what does God do if you don't consider that murder?


You're kind of a joke it seems