Does Open Theism make us view eschatology differently?

Derf · Wednesday at 10:19 AM

Derf said:
I think that's all true, and I wonder if the open theism paradigm can help explain some of the inscrutable eschatology call passages Christians struggle to understand. I remember reading the Left Behind series up through the locusts with scorpion tails, and I felt there was an element missing, though Lehay and Jenkins stayed wooden literal with section.

If open theism is true, then there must be reasons why God is able to tell us the future to the detail He does. I think I'll start a new thread on it.

How God can know the future impacts what He tells us of it. So if He tells us of specific acts of specific people, then either it is because those people existed when the prophecy was written, or someone that existed at that time will be causing the actions, which is the type of determinism that OT allows for.

For instance, Satan, when loosed from the pit at the end of 1000 years, will gather the world and surround the camp of the saints. Satan existed already, and so God knows him and his character, and the type of things he would do after being incarcerated for 1000 years:
Revelation 20:7-9 KJV — And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
What's less clear to me is how God knows that some many of the "nations" will follow Satan, when Christ has been ruling perfectly for 1000 years.

Yorzhik · Wednesday at 11:06 AM

Derf said:
How God can know the future impacts what He tells us of it. So if He tells us of specific acts of specific people, then either it is because those people existed when the prophecy was written, or someone that existed at that time will be causing the actions, which is the type of determinism that OT allows for.

For instance, Satan, when loosed from the pit at the end of 1000 years, will gather the world and surround the camp of the saints. Satan existed already, and so God knows him and his character, and the type of things he would do after being incarcerated for 1000 years:
Revelation 20:7-9 KJV — And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
What's less clear to me is how God knows that some many of the "nations" will follow Satan, when Christ has been ruling perfectly for 1000 years.

I suppose if one wants to say OT makes eschatology differently than the settled view, then yes, of course.

In the settled view, God decreed we would speculate about something He decreed we'd call "eschatology". Although in that context, speculation, what we think about something, or what we call things, is meaningless... which God decreed we'd actually understand even when we engage in such speculation (making it incoherent).

In OT we speculate about exactly what will happen and why for various viable reasons. And what can be some understandings we reach when we read about eschatology? Perhaps none of it will happen. Perhaps no-one will follow Satan. Or, more likely, "how could they think that way?!?!" has been demonstrated repeatedly throughout history so God can be pretty sure if He writes that as a future event he'll be correct.

JudgeRightly · Wednesday at 2:29 PM

Derf said:
How God can know the future impacts what He tells us of it. So if He tells us of specific acts of specific people, then either it is because those people existed when the prophecy was written, or someone that existed at that time will be causing the actions, which is the type of determinism that OT allows for.

For instance, Satan, when loosed from the pit at the end of 1000 years, will gather the world and surround the camp of the saints. Satan existed already, and so God knows him and his character, and the type of things he would do after being incarcerated for 1000 years:
Revelation 20:7-9 KJV — And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
What's less clear to me is how God knows that some many of the "nations" will follow Satan, when Christ has been ruling perfectly for 1000 years.

Open Theism combined with Mid-Acts Dispensationalism.

Derf · Wednesday at 4:28 PM

JudgeRightly said:
Open Theism combined with Mid-Acts Dispensationalism.

Sure, but if you can, filter out the effects of MAD for the time being, to keep the topic as simple and direct as possible.

Derf · Wednesday at 4:31 PM

Yorzhik said:
I suppose if one wants to say OT makes eschatology differently than the settled view, then yes, of course.

In the settled view, God decreed we would speculate about something He decreed we'd call "eschatology". Although in that context, speculation, what we think about something, or what we call things, is meaningless... which God decreed we'd actually understand even when we engage in such speculation (making it incoherent).

In OT we speculate about exactly what will happen and why for various viable reasons. And what can be some understandings we reach when we read about eschatology? Perhaps none of it will happen. Perhaps no-one will follow Satan. Or, more likely, "how could they think that way?!?!" has been demonstrated repeatedly throughout history so God can be pretty sure if He writes that as a future event he'll be correct.

It seems unreasonable to think that nobody will follow Satan. And mob-think is certainly a predictable force for evil, if not also for good sometimes (positive peer pressure). Based on 4000 years of experience, would the Holy Spirit be that uncertain that many would rebel?

Derf · Wednesday at 4:41 PM

Clete said:
What future details are you referring too?

Fir instance:
If the antichrist is a person who is born close to the time of the prophetic fulfillment, then how does God know how he will act? Is it because of human nature, tainted by sin? Is it because of Satan's influence (and God knew Satan before the prophecies were written)? Or does God plan to harden his heart like He did pharaoh's?

Assuming one or two antichrist candidates might actually repent, to touch on @Yorzhik's post, does God expect plenty of potential candidates to refresh the pool? I'm mainly looking to quantify some of the things that seem obvious with OT, but haven't been spelled out yet (afaik).

JudgeRightly · Wednesday at 5:39 PM

Derf said:
Sure, but if you can, filter out the effects of MAD for the time being, to keep the topic as simple and direct as possible.

[EDIT] Can you purify water if you don't run it through a filter? If you disallow a filter to be used, you're going to end up with some pretty dirty water.

Paul said rightly divide.

If you don't rightly divide, then no details, not even end times', will be clearly understood to any reasonable extent.

If you mash everything together, nothing will ever become clear.

JudgeRightly · Wednesday at 6:08 PM

Derf said:
Sure, but if you can, filter out the effects of MAD for the time being, to keep the topic as simple and direct as possible.

JudgeRightly said:
Can you make tea if you keep the tea leaves separate from the water?

Paul said rightly divide.

If you don't rightly divide, then no details, not even end times', will be clearly understood to any reasonable extent.

If you mash everything together, nothing will ever become clear.

Apocalypticism, is just the other half of MAD, essentially. IOW, MAD is a coin, Apocalypticism and Israel's prophetic program as a whole is tails, Paul's dispensation of grace given to him by Christ is heads.

The apocalypse is on hold. Tails is down, currently, while Paul's dispensation of grace is up.

Clete · Wednesday at 9:10 PM

Clete said:
What future details are you referring too?

Derf said:
The antichrist, for instance. But let's take it to the other thread, if you don't mind.
Thread 'Does Open Theism make us view eschatology differently?'

Does Open Theism make us view eschatology differently?

I think that's all true, and I wonder if the open theism paradigm can help explain some of the inscrutable eschatology call passages Christians struggle to understand. I remember reading the Left Behind series up through the locusts with scorpion tails, and I felt there was an element missing...

theologyonline.com

I'm not trying to sound flippant, I promise...

Could you be more specific? Which passages do you have in mind? (You don't need to list them all, just give me an example of the sort of detailed prediction of the future you have in mind.)

Clete · Wednesday at 9:13 PM

Derf said:
Fir instance:
If the antichrist is a person who is born close to the time of the prophetic fulfillment, then how does God know how he will act? Is it because of human nature, tainted by sin? Is it because of Satan's influence (and God knew Satan before the prophecies were written)? Or does God plan to harden his heart like He did pharaoh's?

Assuming one or two antichrist candidates might actually repent, to touch on @Yorzhik's post, does God expect plenty of potential candidates to refresh the pool? I'm mainly looking to quantify some of the things that seem obvious with OT, but haven't been spelled out yet (afaik).

"IF the antichrist is..."

"Assuming one or two antichrist candidates..."

How are such questions possible if the bible is as explicit about these future events as many claim?

Derf · Thursday at 1:27 AM

Clete said:
"IF the antichrist is..."

"Assuming one or two antichrist candidates..."

How are such questions possible if the bible is as explicit about these future events as many claim?

The bible was explicit about Nineveh being destroyed in 40 days, too.

Derf · Thursday at 1:28 AM

Clete said:
I'm not trying to sound flippant, I promise...

Could you be more specific? Which passages do you have in mind? (You don't need to list them all, just give me an example of the sort of detailed prediction of the future you have in mind.)

I'll need to put a list together

Clete · Thursday at 8:49 AM

Derf said:
The bible was explicit about Nineveh being destroyed in 40 days, too.

Well, that's just the point I'm trying to make. Our interpretation of prophecy is one thing, it's actual fulfillment is quite another and, on top of that, prophecy is not prewritten history.

Take Isaiah 53, for example. We can see in hind sight that it is quite an explicit prophecy about a suffering Messiah but before the fact, it was as hidden from view as it would have been had it not been written at all. Had God's plan of salvation been an prophesied in an overtly explicit manner, Satan would have worked against having it ever happen. As it was, God was wise enough to put it in there sufficient to prove that it was His plan and that the events that unfolded were being orchestrated by Him but He did so in a way that kept His enemies in the dark as to His real intentions. I see no reason to expect that end time prophesied will not be fulfilled in a similar manner.

Although, having said that, God knows His enemies better than they know themselves. It isn't out of the question that He makes it so that the antichrist does what is prophesied because there's just no other reasonable course for him to take as though God has put a hook in his jaw (See Ezekiel 38). God manipulates nations in this way throughout the Old Testament and it isn't difficult for God to know what whole populations of people will do in response to particular circumstances which He is very capable of setting up.

Derf · Thursday at 11:30 AM

Clete said:
Well, that's just the point I'm trying to make. Our interpretation of prophecy is one thing, it's actual fulfillment is quite another and, on top of that, prophecy is not prewritten history.

Take Isaiah 53, for example. We can see in hind sight that it is quite an explicit prophecy about a suffering Messiah but before the fact, it was as hidden from view as it would have been had it not been written at all. Had God's plan of salvation been an prophesied in an overtly explicit manner, Satan would have worked against having it ever happen. As it was, God was wise enough to put it in there sufficient to prove that it was His plan and that the events that unfolded were being orchestrated by Him but He did so in a way that kept His enemies in the dark as to His real intentions. I see no reason to expect that end time prophesied will not be fulfilled in a similar manner.

Although, having said that, God knows His enemies better than they know themselves. It isn't out of the question that He makes it so that the antichrist does what is prophesied because there's just no other reasonable course for him to take as though God has put a hook in his jaw (See Ezekiel 38). God manipulates nations in this way throughout the Old Testament and it isn't difficult for God to know what whole populations of people will do in response to particular circumstances which He is very capable of setting up.

Yes, I agree. If God is "setting up", that's one particular way He directs the end He's looking for. But when the false prophet and the antichrist are thrown into the lake of fire, it is not because God planned for a particular person to be born that could never repent, right? That's the part of Calvinism we reject, and I think we reject it as much for one or two people as we do for millions.

Derf · Thursday at 11:33 AM

JudgeRightly said:
Apocalypticism, is just the other half of MAD, essentially. IOW, MAD is a coin, Apocalypticism and Israel's prophetic program as a whole is tails, Paul's dispensation of grace given to him by Christ is heads.

The apocalypse is on hold. Tails is down, currently, while Paul's dispensation of grace is up.

But the "being on hold" makes the OT interpretations even more important to understand, since the people now to be involved weren't in existence when the prophecy was made.

Yorzhik · Thursday at 12:11 PM

Derf said:
It seems unreasonable to think that nobody will follow Satan. And mob-think is certainly a predictable force for evil, if not also for good sometimes (positive peer pressure). Based on 4000 years of experience, would the Holy Spirit be that uncertain that many would rebel?

Right, the prophecy says that enough will follow Satan to make it worth God's time to defeat them. But if not enough follow Satan, God can find a different way to prove His point without removing anyone's will. Or, God may say He doesn't need to prove that point anymore.

If the antichrist is a person who is born close to the time of the prophetic fulfillment, then how does God know how he will act? Is it because of human nature, tainted by sin? Is it because of Satan's influence (and God knew Satan before the prophecies were written)? Or does God plan to harden his heart like He did pharaoh's?

Assuming one or two antichrist candidates might actually repent, to touch on @Yorzhik's post, does God expect plenty of potential candidates to refresh the pool? I'm mainly looking to quantify some of the things that seem obvious with OT, but haven't been spelled out yet (afaik).

So, in light of what I just said, God can certainly have "antichrists" lined up as they make themselves available. And He can do it like He hardened Pharaoh's heart - which was by provoking Pharaoh, not removing Pharaoh's will.

Derf · Thursday at 1:06 PM

Yorzhik said:
Right, the prophecy says that enough will follow Satan to make it worth God's time to defeat them. But if not enough follow Satan, God can find a different way to prove His point without removing anyone's will. Or, God may say He doesn't need to prove that point anymore.

So, in light of what I just said, God can certainly have "antichrists" lined up as they make themselves available. And He can do it like He hardened Pharaoh's heart - which was by provoking Pharaoh, not removing Pharaoh's will.

It seems like the camp of the saints is much smaller than the nation's that surround it.
Revelation 20:8-9 KJV — And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

JudgeRightly · Thursday at 2:23 PM

Derf said:
But the "being on hold" makes the OT interpretations even more important to understand, since the people now to be involved weren't in existence when the prophecy was made.

The "people now to be involved" in the prophetic program has always ever been the Children of Israel. A nation. Not individuals. Those people have existed since Jacob had children, if not since God called Abram out of Canaan, out of the Gentiles.

Paul's dispensation of grace was always a temporary "Plan B" if the Children of Israel didn't go along with God's plan with the Messiah. There is no "apocalypticism," no sense of urgency in this dispensation. Those who are saved by grace alone will not directly experience the end times, we'll be sitting on the so-called sidelines, watching things unfold as they happen, while the Children of Israel goes through her literal trial by fire, to finally make them into a holy and upright nation who honors her God.

Yorzhik · Thursday at 2:37 PM

Derf said:
It seems like the camp of the saints is much smaller than the nation's that surround it.
Revelation 20:8-9 KJV — And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Well, the number is small because it's just Israel, and the number is big because it's the rest of the world. I can see JR's point that MAD is very important in this context.

Nick M · Thursday at 8:36 PM

JudgeRightly said:
Open Theism combined with Mid-Acts Dispensationalism.

Or stated a different way, “what the scripture says”. God in the Bible tells us to study the Bible. Our apostle Paul tells us to study it. Not just memorize it, but study. In one translation of Paul’s letters they call it diligence.

Does Open Theism make us view eschatology differently?

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