Timotheos

Hey bud,...well....following the 2 ECT threads and trying to dialogue with the same posters whose minds are completely set, is becoming a waste of time and space,....I'm sure you're getting to feel that way too? Some are just obstinate, and not willing to consider alternative or other possible translations or interpretations of the text,....but the key issues for me are what also resonates with reason, logic, conscience, divine love and wisdom,...they are the fundamentals, and in this way I'm more liberal to sometimes put these principles above any assumed literal translation of 'scripture', because our conscience and spirit of God within us will corroborate and be in sync with any authentic truth being shared in religious writings. This is where I kinda go beyond terms like whether something is 'biblical' or not, and transcend such, dealing with the doctrine itself, if it be sound, rational and agreeable to the law of God (conscience) within.

Hi Tim,...sorry for going off topic,...just responding to some earlier posts,...will try to keep it back on ECT, but I'm afraid we've practically exhausted the subject, no?

Yeah....I mean who defends ECT but one who with a twisted concept of justice.

The tormentists really know how to torment? LOL

Hi tim,......I've added more to your thread on ECT - some posts may be long...but may be worth exploring along...philosophically speaking. As u know....the debate is just going in the usual circles.....ad tedium. So what more can we do? The resource site I shared on 'conditional immortality' is excellent! I had been meaning to read more commentary there, but have slacked some. The real 'stickler' appears to be ones definition of DEATH, more particularly the 'second death'. In any case,....since I'm not dogmatic about it anyways....I approach is more philosophically if anything. I'm also able to accept being 'agnostic' on some points, since I don't know :idunno: - I may find some viewpoints or conclusions more rational than others, but ever a student.

hi tim,....how bout getting yourself a cool avatar? just a thought

hi tim,...just added some more great links with support from John Stott and Greg Boyd on conditional immortality, also a great video lecture from Edward Fudge. At this point, while its obvious I reject ECT on principle alone, the 'biblical' case for CI is pretty strong if we're going by the over-all testimony of scripture as a whole, and the definitive of 'life' or 'death' which is plainly offered in passages. Stretching beyond a biblical context, I'll explore other schools as I'm led to see how CI holds up in the greater overview, and see if the religious philosophy and mythology of other schools support things along those lines. I think the 'immortal soul' concept inherited from Greek and Vedic philosophy is pretty ingrained in the human psyche, and in general most spiritualist literature. I still contend with seeing a 'biblical-context' somewhat limiting, since one is bound by only that collection of writings and its 'terms'. But still engaging the dialogue :surf:

He's just responded to you, trying to get back to the issue he brought up. Now's your chance to show him you can do the same. His point is a valid one. Yours is, too. Answer his question, directly, then explain why your position is superior.

I think you two are both behaving like children.
I'm sorry you lost your long post. The problem is that our language doesn't deal well with spiritual things. So when you apply a carnal concept to a spiritual topic, it's difficult to discern what is meant. That's why I would like to discuss meanings of words. Without that discussion we're just talking past each other.

I've been driving deeper into studies on 'conditional immortality'....and may share more resource links and videos on it. My challenge is incorporating and or synthesizing the knowledge of all well thought out schools of thought on the subject....within a biblical-context and extra-biblical one seeing that most of the traditionalists only accept the Bible as a guide or authority on these matters. That's where things get tricky though, since only a limited number of interpretations is allowed if we just use the Bible, hence the different viewpoints and conclusions. Ultimately it's a matter of life and death....but man may differ on the details of these propositions and the terms involved in their conditions. Thru-out, we accept God and 'universal law' to be wholly fair (just and merciful) in all cases.....as his love, wisdom and goodness inspires his conduct always towards the fulfillment of his will.

Hi tim,.....I just saw your response here as it didn't go to my profile page....u forgot to hit the 'view conversation' page then respond yes.....'learning' is a matter of 'earning'. As long as any info., knowledge or wisdom exists to be earned....there will be 'learning'. I've given so much to the ECT issue already....and it just feels like kicking a dead horse...especially with those who are are dogmatically entrenched in their conclusion. I've challenged ECT on principle alone, which is enough for me, as well as textual criticism....which favors better a 'conditional immortality' or 'universalist' view. Have u seen my sharing of a Spiritist view here? (See previous posts linked)

And the more you learn, usually the more you discover that you need to learn.
The easy answers were in grade school. More and more the answer to everything is "It depends".

Wow, you made a harp, that is so awesome! I would love to do that. I have a friend who makes cigar box guitars. He's putting a pickup on my dulcinet so that I can play it in church. I played it last sunday in church, but it was so quiet that it was hard to hear, I think you are probably right that the full truth is found within many different schools. The more you learn, the more you learn, right?

Oh cool,...I love music,...and was gonna take up the harp - I made one from a small kit, but have to fix one of the strings, tune it and learn to read music,...and/or play by ear/improvise. Otherwise, in my religious studies, research and contemplation, I listen to new age, meditation, healing/reiki music in the background or 'hemi-sync' music which helps balance the left/right hemispheres of the brain. I enjoy adding to the discussion from the broader spectrum of religious traditions and esoteric schools, since there is so much to draw from. As I noted, I think our views may be 'modified' somewhat when we discern or research the difference between 'soul' and 'spirit' and what parts of man are of an imperishable nature (pure energy-spirit-consciousness) and what part of the soul is 'perishable' (subject to disintegration, dissolution, death).

Hello Tim,..............thanks for sharing,....just goes to show the 'tormenters' are not satisfied until you "get what you deserve" so to speak. You have to consider the 'mentality' at work behind any philosophy or theology, and sometimes have to take a back seat to let the circus go on by itself,...lest you become one of the clowns As you know I challenge ECT from many different views, not just a 'biblical' one, because the doctrine can be dismissed on principle alone, and on other levels. All they can do is beat you over the head with their 'proof texts',...that's all they got. God gave us reason, logic, a conscience, moral sense and spiritual intelligence (some innate, some granted), so its best to use it. - and continue to learn and research all assumptions.

Sorry, I had originally replied in the wrong place. Thanks for the request, and yes, true Light shining into the darkness of religious dogma tends to ruffle feathers!

Hi Tim, u know ur just gonna go in circles with Way 2 go,.....he cant see past his own programming. How much more can u share with a person :idunno: - after awhile,....its a waste of pearls.

just put them on ignore

Welcome back

I hope you reconsider
take a break and try again
I have in the past